Bolt On Si -- no tuning vs tuning comparison

[VitViper]

Just finished up the tune on Mike's bolt on 2013 Civic Si and wanted to share some impressions. Bolt ons:


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaTqwYHjGjI


- K&N SRI
- Skunk2 3" Catless DP
- Invidia Q300 Exhaust

Fully tuned the car made 193whp/173wtq, and filled out the powerband quite nicely, with consistent pulls. The dashed green graph is the car on the stock tune. Posted are 3 graphs comparing various gains:

- Peak power, before & after.
- Top end gains tuned.
- Low end gains tuned. Note the 53wtq gain @ 1700 rpm. This is not some sort of BS -- on the stock tune the motor would hesitate and misfire, this was completely resolved with a custom tune.

So impressions? Mike was a champ and FlashPro was the very first mod for his car. I am really baffled as to why anyone would spend $1400 on bolt ons and not get custom tuning for their car. The bolt ons do absolutely nothing for the power of the car (they actually hurt drivability and performance - a bone stock 9th gen dynos about 175whp on this dyno) until you add tuning.

Final thought -- looks like the K&N Intake is actually worse than the OEM airbox and kills top end post 6000 rpm -- I have had 9th gens make better top end with the stock intake, which was only beat by the PRL CAI so far.

Low end:

Top end:

Peak:

 

[corey99699]

So if you could recommend one intake would it be the prl?Youre tuning my car right now and I was running the reflash map and the difference is huge.theres really no comparison.What are your opinions on the AFE/greddy momentum?

 

[webby]

excellent as always vit

 

[VitViper]

Thanks webby.

So if you could recommend one intake would it be the prl?Youre tuning my car right now and I was running the reflash map and the difference is huge.theres really no comparison.What are your opinions on the AFE/greddy momentum?

The PRL CAI is the only intake I have seen to date that actually makes any power over the stock airbox. All the typical 'rush to market' intakes I've seen so far make doo-doo power.

 

[JayGeeisMe]

The bolt ons do absolutely nothing for the power of the car (they actually hurt drivability and performance - a bone stock 9th gen dynos about 175whp on this dyno) until you add tuning.

I have had 9th gens make better top end with the stock intake, which was only beat by the PRL CAI so far.

I'm confused. You said that bolt ons without tuning hurt power and drivability with these cars. But there are people that have done before and after Dyno comparisons with mods on a stock ECU and showed gains with no reported drivability issues.
I was always under the impression that bolt ons do nothing without tuning. But after reports of gains from other members I began to think otherwise.

 

[VitViper]

I'm confused. You said that bolt ons without tuning hurt power and drivability with these cars. But there are people that have done before and after Dyno comparisons with mods on a stock ECU and showed gains with no reported drivability issues.
I was always under the impression that bolt ons do nothing without tuning. But after reports of gains from other members I began to think otherwise.

My experience and that of customers I have tuned disagrees -- the drivability on a bolt on Si that is tuned is miles better than running on the stock ECU. Keep in mind, the quality of the intake being used also plays a huge role in how the ecu responds as the stock ECU uses the MAF sensor to control fueling. If the intake is designed to perform like the stock one (same diameter around the maf, proper length, no crazy bends before/after it) mileage may vary, but still nothing like what the car drives like with a proper tune.

I'm working on getting a bone stock 9th gen on this dyno, and we'll be tuning it. Stay tuned.

 

[JayGeeisMe]

Awesome! Ya I've never doubted that a modded car runs better with a tune. I have the Takeda Momentum intake (have yet to install) and was debating if FP and a tune would be worth the $$ if an intake is going to be my only engine mod. Looking forward to seeing the results of your testing.

 

[VitViper]

You're better off leaving the intake stock if you don't have an FP + tune.

 

[JayGeeisMe]

You're better off leaving the intake stock if you don't have an FP + tune.

Thanks for clearing that up. I appreciate the info. I'll just keep it in the box until I get FP.

.....or just sell it since $6-700 + tuning cost is kinda hard to justify for just an intake alone. Haha

 

[w00t692]

Just like the 8thgen, if you keep all your mods on the exhaust side and keep the stock airbox (or just delete the resonator off the stock airbox and leave it mostly stock) you end up with a better performing vehicle until you do get tuned.

 

[JayGeeisMe]

Just like the 8thgen, if you keep all your mods on the exhaust side and keep the stock airbox (or just delete the resonator off the stock airbox and leave it mostly stock) you end up with a better performing vehicle until you do get tuned.

I've always just assumed that you need a tune to make any of these newer cars run well with mods. I had an 8th gen Si and traded it in at 85k still stock haha. Cost so much $$ to mod these things.

 

[Yongee]

Everyones been suggesting that i flash my car, but wouldnt it void my warranty? Is it really worth 700+ to get the flashpro and tune or just go to a shop and get a tune for 100? I only have a takeda stage 2 intake so far and im planning to add the efr turbo and exhaust after my warranty is void.

 

[squiggy]

Everyones been suggesting that i flash my car, but wouldnt it void my warranty? Is it really worth 700+ to get the flashpro and tune or just go to a shop and get a tune for 100? I only have a takeda stage 2 intake so far and im planning to add the efr turbo and exhaust after my warranty is void.

The car CANNOT be tuned unless you have FlashPro.

 

[JayGeeisMe]

The car CANNOT be tuned unless you have FlashPro.

This isn't entirely true. He can take his car to a Hondata dealer and have them tune his car using the dealer flashpro. BUT, you would have to pay for the Hondata licensing fee ($295) plus the tuning and dyno time. Unless you have a good hookup, it's gonna cost about the same price as buying your own Flashpro in the first place.

 

[squiggy]

This isn't entirely true. He can take his car to a Hondata dealer and have them tune his car using the dealer flashpro. BUT, you would have to pay for the Hondata licensing fee ($295) plus the tuning and dyno time. Unless you have a good hookup, it's gonna cost about the same price as buying your own Flashpro in the first place.

Not sure who would waste their money going that route.

How about: "The car CANNOT be tuned without FlashPro."

 

[JayGeeisMe]

Not sure who would waste their money going that route.

How about: "The car CANNOT be tuned without FlashPro."

Ya I know right? it's totally not worth it unless you're in good with the person running the dyno/tuning. I guess it's an available option for those people who are only gonna have one specific setup for as long as they have the car and want a dyno tune instead of a reflash or E-tune.

 

[webby]

Shops also usually charge anywhere from $120-200/hr to tune on a dyno. It's not uncommon to spend $400 on tuning if you go to a dyno shop. Vitviper e-tunes for like 175

vittuned.com

 

[Asteezy88]

So would it be worth it to swap out an injen cai for the prl? Or would the gains just be minimal

 

[carpenj]

I think I must be misunderstanding here - were you saying that a stock version of 'our' car makes around 175whp on your dyno, and this car with the intake, exhaust, and tune only makes 193whp? I know there is some gain there, but that's quite a lot of money lol.

 

[Driversound]

I think I must be misunderstanding here - were you saying that a stock version of 'our' car makes around 175whp on your dyno, and this car with the intake, exhaust, and tune only makes 193whp? I know there is some gain there, but that's quite a lot of money lol.

True, $765 is a lot of money for about 12lbs more tq and 23 hp. I bet the driveability is much better though. Iin this example, this car had intake, DP and exhaust. I know I saw Vit's tuning on a completely stock Si and gains up to 21 hp (someone correct me if I'm wrong) but again, that's still pricey ($37 per hp) for most but you got to pay to play. I'd rather have a tune that a new set of wheels for daily driveability purposes. My first mod was a short shifter just for that purpose and really aside from tint, I have not done anything else.