'13 Civic Si BBK advice

webby said:
What data do you have on the pads?
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Very little. When I asked R1 for specifics they couldn't even give me a standard size so I could look for replacements. All I know is this blurb the salesman sent me when I was making a selection:
"Main material: Steel, metal, fiber
For normal road driving, but some car models do make noise while in braking.
Optimal operating temperature: 100-600°C.
Instant temperature 650°C.
Average coefficient of friction: 0.40-0.50µ."

These are the step above the basic street pads they offer; He compared them to Hawk HPS. The next step up was a track pad not suitable for the street. If I could get the Project Mu pads in the correct sizes, that would be my first choice for a street pad based on what I have seen others recommend, but I know they are hard to come by.

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Thank you @Nix for the detailed response. I expected more noise and for there to be some changes in the cold, but had not expected such a significant change in the wet. It's good to know that is normal for certain pad compounds.

I'm actually surprised my rotors don't get that rusty; even the oem rotors got more oxidized than the new ones do. They even noted that they should be rusty upon install after cleaning the rotors properly, and I never saw that happen even though they were thoroughly scrubbed with soap and hot water per the instructions. I know that's normal, so it does not worry me. What I do worry about is the significant amount of dust these pads shed and whether or not it's building up somewhere causing the fronts to rub. I doubt that's the case, but my mind likes to think of the most obtuse causes possible.

As far as break in period, I've already put almost 4k miles on the car since the install. I'd hope they are broken in by now, especially since I have been anything but gentle with them after the first 500 miles. I will ask R1 what they feel is the recommended time and post that here.

In the mean time, how should I go about searching for new pads? It's easy to swap them out, and if these pads don't bite in the snow I'm going to need something else for the winter. But I don't know what size to look for. Should I take out the pads and measure them, or is there some sort of chart I can reference? And if I want Project Mu pads but they don't have them in that size, can I get them to make me a set in the correct size?

So many things I have very little experience with, lol. Thanks again for the advice, guys.


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Well, cold weather performance may be a bit of an issue for you.

You posted that the optimal operating temperature for the pads is : 100-600°C.

Thats 212 F minimum. If it's really cold out those pads might not bite at all. Could be a little treacherous when you first start driving. I would suggest being quite careful and test the brakes out a couple times the first day it gets super cold out to see what they do. I would imagine they still have some brake to them but probably a lot of increased noise as well.

I guess if they have a more common street pad a set of those may be worth investing in for the winter. The other option in the meantime is to contact Porterfield brakes. They make custom brake pads and backing plates. You can either mail them one of your current pads and buy a new set of the street pads or, carefully trace the outline of the backing plate and fax them the paper. They will either be able to tell you which pads will fit that someone makes or they will make you a custom set to use with whatever compound specs you want.

Expensive? Probably. But give Porterfield a call. They are super helpful. I had custom shoes made once with a very aggressive compound. Since drum brakes suck, I wanted as much bite as possible.


I would really recommend buying the street pads for the winter since the current ones need 212F to function. I would hate for you to rear end someone or worse because your pads don't work when it's cold out.



Porterfield: 949-548-4470

http://porterfield-brakes.com/categories/shop/Custom+Brake+Pads.html
 
Nix said:
Well, cold weather performance may be a bit of an issue for you.

You posted that the optimal operating temperature for the pads is : 100-600°C.

Thats 212 F minimum. If it's really cold out those pads might not bite at all. Could be a little treacherous when you first start driving. I would suggest being quite careful and test the brakes out a couple times the first day it gets super cold out to see what they do. I would imagine they still have some brake to them but probably a lot of increased noise as well.

I guess if they have a more common street pad a set of those may be worth investing in for the winter. The other option in the meantime is to contact Porterfield brakes. They make custom brake pads and backing plates. You can either mail them one of your current pads and buy a new set of the street pads or, carefully trace the outline of the backing plate and fax them the paper. They will either be able to tell you which pads will fit that someone makes or they will make you a custom set to use with whatever compound specs you want.

Expensive? Probably. But give Porterfield a call. They are super helpful. I had custom shoes made once with a very aggressive compound. Since drum brakes suck, I wanted as much bite as possible.


I would really recommend buying the street pads for the winter since the current ones need 212F to function. I would hate for you to rear end someone or worse because your pads don't work when it's cold out.



Porterfield: 949-548-4470

http://porterfield-brakes.com/categories/shop/Custom+Brake+Pads.html
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Thanks again @Nix. That's the sort of thing I was looking for (Porterfield reference).

Though the stated temperature range starts at 100°C, I haven't had much issue with the cold bite unless it is wet out. Even the first time I use them on a cold morning (it was 40°F this morning when I pulled out) they still bite enough that it doesn't make me feel unsafe, and of course they heat up very quickly. Only when it is wet out do I feel unsafe, and am curious to see if that translates to below freezing temperatures or not.

The only other pads R1 offered that are more street oriented had a similar starting temp, but a lower maximum temp which is why I went with the slightly more aggressive pads. I don't think anything that R1 is selling for my kit will have a better cold bite, but perhaps may have better wet capabilities (though I'm skeptical since that more street oriented pad is also a semi-metallic compound). What concerns me with the winter is the everlasting wetness that the snow provides, so even if the cold bite is sufficient they may feel wet all the time regardless of the precipitation that day if things are melting or just standing. I will ask R1 more specifically if they have anyone with experience using their kit in the cold. They did finally send me the missing bolts from the install, so at least I have those in hand, finally.

I'll be swapping out to winter tires at the end of the week and will post some pics of how things are wearing. The pads look like they have hardly worn down at all which surprises me after seeing how much dust they produce.

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webby said:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=965567
2 pages of comments about rain/brake pads
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Interesting. It would not surprise me that R1, a CA based company, has never tested these pads in a cold AND wet situation. I bet these pads just aren't designed for cold or wet conditions. I was never very enthused with their pad selection and planned to get other pads anyways. Nbd, just more pressed for time than I wanted to be since, you know, winter is coming. [emoji12]

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I did notice my wet performance changed with the wheel I was running. Wide open design summer wheels let a ton of water in and the steel winters that had a very closed design had no issues. Might be something to consider also. If you have a second set of winter wheels or run OEM steelies you will probably have less of an issue in wet/snowy conditions.

Cleveland gets a fair bit of snow doesn't it? I'd imagine a tighter wheel design and good snow tires will make a noticeable difference. Just make sure you can clear those calipers.
 
Nix said:
I did notice my wet performance changed with the wheel I was running. Wide open design summer wheels let a ton of water in and the steel winters that had a very closed design had no issues. Might be something to consider also. If you have a second set of winter wheels or run OEM steelies you will probably have less of an issue in wet/snowy conditions.

Cleveland gets a fair bit of snow doesn't it? I'd imagine a tighter wheel design and good snow tires will make a noticeable difference. Just make sure you can clear those calipers.
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That's good to know. I saw wheel design effecting things noted but not confirmed in the link @webby shared above. Unfortunately, I was planning on making these HPD wheels my winter set and buying something with even thinner spokes for my new summer wheels, lol. But that is a consideration. I'll have to see how things go once the snow tires are on and it drops below freezing on a regular basis. New pads will likely be much cheaper than new wheels, even if they are custom made.

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Finally got to inspect things closely on Tuesday while I was swapping to my winter tires. As I suspected, the pads are riding on the rotors. It's a strange predicament though; even though they have worn down a noticeable amount the pads continue to just barely contact the rotor surface enough to make a grating noise as you spin the rotors but not enough to build up any amount of heat. It is occurring on all four corners. If I had to guess, I would say the knock back springs inside the pistons are not fit correctly to the new dust boots they used, as the pad backing plate never retracts back any further, even when force is applied to try and create more separation. Hopefully you can see what I'm talking about in the pics.

Also, I got very little response so far from R1; apparently SEMA is more important than existing customers for them.

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20161108_111830.jpg

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webby said:
Sema ended nov 3rd. Call them again
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I emailed them a few more times, especially after they didn't first respond and then again after I got to snap pics. If they don't get back to me Monday I'll be calling, a lot. One thing I haven't been very satisfied with is their customer service; But I've been waiting til everything is sorted out before I pass judgement on that end.

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Update: R1 is sending me a free set of street pads. Their customer service department determined that the pads I have now are not suitable for road use in the winter (even though the salesman said it would be fine). Hopefully they alleviate the lack of bite I currently have when it is wet - surprisingly they work fine in the snow. I also tried to get an answer about the pads riding on the rotors and have just been told that is how they are designed.
Is this common with other BBK setups? It makes sense that you wouldn't want the pads retracting all the way because then there would be significant pedal travel before the pads actually contacted the rotor to slow you down but it still worries me, especially now that it is below freezing and things are feeling sticky and syrupy (for instance, the other morning when I went to pull out I put the ebrake down and then noticed that the rear calipers took a good quarter mile to release fully).
I can work with this setup if that's how it's designed to function, I just don't have any experience with other setups to know if this is normal or not.

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