Cold Start "Scraping/Rattle" Noise Grinding Cold Start - VTC Actuator Merged Threads

Discussion in 'Mechanical Problems & Technical Chat' started by mno86, Jan 31, 2014.

  1. PainlessCandy

    PainlessCandy Well-Known Member

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    331
    Location:
    Cleveland
    Vehicle Model:
    Civic Si
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    Hello everyone,

    I have a '13 Si that has the known VTC Actuator rattle on cold start-up. I know there has been a lot of problems with other owners getting this fixed, or even positively diagnosed, so I have a few questions for anyone in-the-know.

    Recently, I was finally able to recreate the noise for my dealer. After doing so, my service adviser came back and told me that after speaking with Honda about my issue, he was informed that this is a known problem for our vehicles and that, "Honda is developing a new part to replace the factory part." He couldn't tell me anything more than that (no timeline), so I am wondering if anyone else has heard of this solution? Basically, I am being told to wait until the new part comes out, or it is not worth the time and effort to open up my motor.

    I was also recently told by a tech who has replaced multiple VTC Actuators in his time that I should not wait because this problem causes damage to other parts due to oil starvation on that flow pathway. Does anyone else have any experience with this, or more specific information as to which parts may be damaged?

    I am quickly approaching the end of my bumper-to-bumper warranty period and want to have these issues resolved before they can turn around and make me front the bill because I am "out of warranty". Thanks for your help!
     
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  2. PainlessCandy

    PainlessCandy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    331
    Location:
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    Vehicle Model:
    Civic Si
    Body Style:
    Coupe
    I would almost guarantee this is the VTC Actuator problem many of us have with our Si's, and some of the older CR-V's (any DOC engine with the "i"-VTEC). Does it sound like the video posted below? That is a good example of the noise being very loud; mine started out softer and less extended, but varies from time to time and does not do it every time.

    I have read through the starter issue forums posted above as well, a lot of them ended up having this issue confused with a bad starter motor.

     
  3. Michal006

    Michal006 Well-Known Member

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    Mine sounds like this
     
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  4. PainlessCandy

    PainlessCandy Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Vehicle Model:
    Civic Si
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    Here is a technical video of the system and how it works. The problem/rattle is caused by the inside of the actuator (the advance and retard chambers) draining of oil while the car sits off for a long time. When the car is started, the oil pressure does not build up fast enough to refill the chambers and the intake cam just flails about causing the nasty noise we hear. There is a pin inside the mechanism which locks the cam in one place which I believe is failing. The fix is to replace the entire mechanism on the end of the cam shaft. With most cases, especially early on, the problem only presents these symptoms in near or below-freezing temperatures, and when the car has sat for a long enough period for the oil to drain (typically resulting in a cold-soaked start).

     
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  5. PainlessCandy

    PainlessCandy Well-Known Member

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    331
    Location:
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    Vehicle Model:
    Civic Si
    Body Style:
    Coupe

    Yes! That is it!! It was a not-so-bad one, but definitely the same noise.
     
  6. webby
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    Merging 3 similar threads regarding cold start / vtc actuator issues.

    This is the most interesting post I've seen regarding this to date -

     
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  7. Scuderi

    Scuderi Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    382
    Location:
    Maryland
    Vehicle Model:
    Civic Si
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    Coupe
    Yeah I have the same thing. Sounds just like Michal's. Dropping it off next Friday at the dealer to have them take a look
     
  8. PainlessCandy

    PainlessCandy Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    Cleveland
    Vehicle Model:
    Civic Si
    Body Style:
    Coupe
    Good luck to you!! Be prepared to leave it for a long time, at least overnight, for them to be able to replicate the noise - unless it's doing it 100% of the time. I had to take mine in 3 separate times before they heard it. Getting a recording of it is always in your favor as well. I hope you have quicker success than myself!
     
  9. PainlessCandy

    PainlessCandy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    331
    Location:
    Cleveland
    Vehicle Model:
    Civic Si
    Body Style:
    Coupe
    Thanks webby! I can't believe I didn't see the other thread when I was researching this problem earlier. Mno86's & SI_2's videos would have been really helpful, SI_2's is the best I've seen thus far on an actual Si.
     
  10. Robotaz

    Robotaz New Member

    Messages:
    11
    One thing to add, make sure and use a Honda oil filter if you're having this problem.
     
  11. PainlessCandy

    PainlessCandy Well-Known Member

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    From what I have seen, this makes no difference. I have had the problem with any of the number of filters that I have used, both Honda OEM parts and aftermarket, and both quality and junk filters. Honestly, the OEM filters Honda is currently using are crap (part # ending in A02), they are poorly made by Honeywell/Fram from sub-par parts. You are better off getting a Bosch or other aftermarket filter. The original part (A01) were quality, but nigh impossible to find anymore.

    See this other thread: http://9thcivic.com/forum/threads/why-you-dont-use-fram-oil-filters.5120/
     
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  12. Bulkybear

    Bulkybear Well-Known Member

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    I would like to ask, because my car has done this once, why is it such a big deal. At least with mine, it did it only for a second, couldn't imagine it causing any damage right?
     
  13. Robotaz

    Robotaz New Member

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    I disagree.
     
  14. squiggy
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    squiggy Cartographer

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    Can you provide evidence that OEM filters are better to go along with this disagreement?
     
  15. JonnyRotten

    JonnyRotten Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Vehicle Model:
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    Thanks for posting this video @PainlessCandy
    I've always wondered how the iVTEC system works.
    My car makes that same strange sound on a cold start up and I was wondering what was causing this.
    My biggest question and concern is does this momentary oil starvation cause any major damage??:confuzzled:
     
  16. PainlessCandy

    PainlessCandy Well-Known Member

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    Exactly my response. There are dozens of videos and walk-throughs where people open up and compare oil filters (just take 5 min to browse www.bobistheoilguy.com) including the Honda OEM filters, both A01 and A02. The new filters Honda is using are made by Fram/Honeywell and utilize pieces of cardboard, the thinnest, flimsiest rubber gaskets possible, and poor quality control checks (missed welds, threads coming detached when mounting, etc) because they are now manufactured in China. It's incredibly easy to see once you open one up, and the amount of money being saved compared to buying a decent filter (I'm not saying Bosch is the only good filter out there, just a good example) is negligible.

    If you are talking about the old A01 Honda OEM filters, they were just as good as their aftermarket competitors because they were made here in America by Filtech using quality parts. But Honda doesn't use these parts anymore, they switched to the A02 years ago and the A01 is no longer in production, so good luck finding one.

    Here is a thread all about it so you can educate yourself @Robotaz : http://honda-tech.com/honda-civic-2006-current-79/oil-filters-honda-2889877/
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2015
  17. PainlessCandy

    PainlessCandy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    331
    Location:
    Cleveland
    Vehicle Model:
    Civic Si
    Body Style:
    Coupe
    Most of the wear on your engine happens at startup. This is due to lack of oil clinging to surfaces and no oil pressure to supply new oil for that first second, among other things. Does oil starvation cause damage to your engine? Absolutely.

    I have heard from more than one tech now who has replaced these actuators themselves that this noise is in fact causing damage to internal parts. One tech told me that if the problem is allowed to continue for an extended period of time that it will cause your timing chain to stretch and break, which would clearly lead to catastrophic failure. The other tech told me that this problem causes oil starvation to parts further down the oil flow pathway that the actuator lies in. These parts are deep down inside your engine block, so unless you are replacing internal parts you aren't going to see any damage.

    Also, I believe the noise itself is caused by the intake cam failing around and slamming back and forth between the full retard and full advance positions in the actuator due to it not being properly locked in place which cannot be good for the cam, the valves, the actuator, or the timing chain. I am still searching for solid proof of these claims, but every time I hear my car make this horrific noise (about 75% of the time during the winter) I have a hard time believing no harm is being done.
     
  18. JonnyRotten

    JonnyRotten Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    @PainlessCandy I'm pretty sure the K24 has a timing belt, not a chain and a belt won't really stretch.
     
  19. Bulkybear

    Bulkybear Well-Known Member

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    I believe Johnny is correct with the timing belt information. As far as oil starvation, I'm not sure it causes as much damage as people seem to believe if it only happens for a second, at least in my case. I always thought the VTC was on the cam gear itself but I could be wrong. We used to have an old Ford farm truck with a staight 6 in it that had an oil pan leak. Every month at some point it would run dry of oil and start knocking pretty bad, we would drive it 5 miles to the gas station, knocking, put oil in it and the knocking would stop. This happened for like 200k miles until the truck was finally killed by drowning it in a lake... so I'm kind of skeptical of this issue causing any real damage. Would be nice to have more info or perspective on the issue :)
     
  20. webby
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