Preloading brake/front end while staying on the gas??????

Discussion in 'Mechanical Problems & Technical Chat' started by Monk, Sep 13, 2015.

  1. Monk

    Monk Well-Known Member

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    I am wondering if any race course types on here can do a discussion on cars that are programed to stall when doing this.
    I've been doing this on every car/mc since the late 60's. For peeps that don't know what I'm doing this for, it's to compress the front end smoothly so it doesn't dive when I reach the point in the turn where I want to start using the gas, achieving a smooth transition from brake to gas....... Our Honda's engine is designed to stall when using the foot brake...... And I was wondering why they designed them this way?

    Also, any driving technics you use to try and accomplish this, going with the way it's designed?
     
  2. webby
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    you mean braking without putting the clutch in when almost stopped?
     
  3. Monk

    Monk Well-Known Member

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    I'm referring to going into a corner at speed while holding enough front brake to drop the front suspension so as to get rid of the slack, and while still having my f-brake on, I start applying gas at the same time while slowly letting off the brake...... That's the goal, but this car stalls if trying to use both the gas and brake at the same time........ but this is at varying speeds, not talking about almost stopped type stalling...........
    Also mines an automatic......
     
  4. Darkout
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    Darkout Supporting Member

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    I have a great off ramp 270 degree turn to try this Monk. Cant say the Si does it as I "think" I've tried this successfully but usually just allow throttle lift to help rotate the back some. The stock all seasons really limit corner grip but ill let you know what I come up with.
     
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  5. bram24681012

    bram24681012 Well-Known Member

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    Left foot braking? I do it sometimes but never stall, I'm usually going around a bend though so no chance of stalling.

    Don't know why you would do it around a corner instead of heel-toeing though
     
  6. Darkout
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    Darkout Supporting Member

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    Doing 50-55 in second doesn't allow much heel/toe but left foot braking yes, all depends on the turn and driving style. Plus as Monk said he has an auto which is different driving style than stick.
     
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  7. Nix

    Nix Jötunn Moderator

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    Yes, putting weight over the front wheels into a turn helps a lot. The SI guys most likely drive a lot differently from the R18 crew. Being a low power R18 driver myself I can offer my experience with trying to run hard and fast....


    If its an AT you have two things to deal with. The AT itself, which isn't all bad, and the Honda Grade Logic Transmission Controller. Its a great trans for normal driving and its a cruel sadistic bastard if you want to go fast. The car will "neutral out" and completely disengage the transmission if you hit the brakes too hard at speed. It thinks you are panic braking for a crash and need to stop right way. Hence, it disengages the transmission so there is no forward push at all. If you are coming into a corner hot and late brake/stab/stand on the brake pedal you can hopefully catch the transmission before it fully disengages and:

    1) You missed it. It fully disengaged. It neutraled out and you scrubbed a ton of speed. Hey you made the corner but now you're going 25 and the trans is stuck in 3rd and it won't drop to 2nd with it floored and its gonnna take you 40 seconds to climb back up to 55mph. Crap. You basically just stalled an AT car. The grade logic controller is examining a bunch of inputs like throttle position, pedal position, the angle of the car, and a whole lot of other factors I don't understand. The car essentially stands still but maintains current speed. I don't understand fully what causes this state but man, its frustrating. You can stop or keep going but it takes a few seconds for the car to "kick back in" and get going again.

    Better options:

    2) Get off the brakes sooner, cause you braked correctly, and have it start engine braking you with a 5th to 4th (rare) or 5th to 3rd convertor engaged gear drop with hard engine braking. (The RPMs spike temporarily before full neutral release) If you end up mid turn in this state, getting back on the gas quickly generally results in a brief high rpm rev with almost no power. It sucks and you lurch the car hard and it immediately drops to 5th again, duh you revved it hard, and then down to 4th or 3rd or, 2nd if you really boned it, and lost a ton of speed before picking up the power again.


    What you want:

    3) Be able to get back on the gas and catch a 5th to 3rd drop without losing too many RPMS and the power band on the way out. Limited as it may be if you are able to do this and pull 3k rpms out mid corner you will be ok. You will have full power and be able to easily rev out to 5k before it tries to upshift again. You can absolutely feel this 3rd gear catch if you do it right. Braking properly coming in, which means not full hard brakes, but enough to scrub speed and cause a downshift, that generally drops into 3rd, and turning in semi-early so you can get back on the power mid-turn. Essentially you will catch the trans before full neutral release and be able to hit the gas with 3rd engaged and put down enough power to maintain speed and then accelerate out of the turn.

    These cars have no power anyway so don't expect some huge life changing difference if you hit option 1, 2, or 3 on occasion. If you do manage to catch a nice engine braked 3rd gear drop and pull out of a turn and wind out the gear... nice job! Pretty awesome wasn't it? Now if we would all stop being stubborn and buy manuals we could do that all the time. But since we aren't cool like that, we have to suffer most of the time and occasionally have a wicked corner experience and have people say "holy crap man, thats not an SI?"


    The third option is the one you want to catch but it doesn't always happen due to the grade logic controller. If the road is flat thats one thing. If its tilted up or down then the car picks a different set of parameters, grade = tilt and logic = computer thinks for you, and the trans responds accordingly for your Grandma's general driving habits. Duh, you granny loves her Civic. Thats why she's bought 4 already and you're only on your first one. Hence, Honda caters to Grans preference, not yours. When you've bought 4 Civics you can call Honda and tell them how you want a more aggy drivetrain in your base model Civic for taking your cat to the vet and going to Target for more Depends. Hell, I bet your Gran would out drive you cause she's got less to lose from crashing and since her sight is fading I bet she comes into corners a bit too hot more often than anyone else.

    Other than that if you manage to panic brake the trans into full "neutral out" mode and then get back on the gas hard, most likely you will feel a large jolt from the torque convertor locking up and putting power to the wheels again. Catch it part way and you'll love it. I think you'll probably need a heck of a set of tires to be able to carry this type of speed through a corner but thats my experience trying to wring performance out of an AT R18.


    Im sure some smart Honda techs could really tell us whats up and whats going on in the transmission/controller. If I'm wrong then please correct me. I just know what mine seems to do when it gets hot and I'm chasing a pack of Si/WRX/NSX at the Dragon.
     
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  8. Monk

    Monk Well-Known Member

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    Thx, @Nix....... Great evaluation of these cars a how to deal with them. That's pretty much what I was looking for, I've been braking early enough so I can put it in D3 or 2nd in turns that need it and be back to normal with the engine rev, and slow enough to be on the gas though the remainder of the turn, so the only real preload on the frt suspension is from the car being slowed by the lower gears and staying off the gas to keep the drag. This helps it act some what normal, since it is front wheel drive, it helps as well(1st fwd I've had).

    I was wondering what was making it cut off this way, but you 'Splained it for me.
     
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  9. Nix

    Nix Jötunn Moderator

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    For anyone that hasn't played around with the "gears" in these cars, putting it in D2 or D3 does not put you in that gear necessarily. What it does do is lock out any gears higher than that. So D3 will lock out 4th and 5th. Putting it into D2 may cause the car to drop into 2nd since that gear is so low and it will only stay in 1st and 2nd. I find D3 to be plenty for tight twisty roads and it will drop to 2nd as needed if you slow down a lot. You will still get the neutral out condition even with it in these gears. Also keep in mind that the Honda automatics have clutch packs and behave similar to a manual and it will engine brake you pretty good if you are in D3 and take your foot off the gas.

    I highly recommend either stopping or slowing down a lot before dropping from D to D3 or D2. Powershifting is definitely not recommended for these transmissions but you can do it occasionally. Also I will try and take some pics of my trans temp gauge to today. The fluid gets quite hot under load even for just a few minutes.

    I have no idea about how the CVTs respond or act.
     
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  10. Monk

    Monk Well-Known Member

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    Quote from @Nix,"Also I will try and take some pics of my trans temp gauge to today. The fluid gets quite hot under load even for just a few minutes".

    If you could remember the temp at normal D5, then tell us what the temp is dropping down to D3 & 2nd at a sane rpm range? I like to use my 3/2, but I'm not trying to drop it in the high rev area, just moderate like any normal down shifting of a straight stick, a little sooner than the automatic might want to do.
     
  11. Nix

    Nix Jötunn Moderator

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    Unfortunately I do not have a "normal" temp that I can give you guys. I installed an external cooler and the gauge is on the cool return side of it so I'm seeing the fluid temps going back into the trans fluid pan. On the highway doing 70-75 the temps were staying low around 120 degrees. Here, while running hard, which is like 3-4k rpms independent of gear, the temps climb to about 200 degrees. Thats while moving 30-45mph through tight twisty roads under load. Basically whenever we are running uphill. On the downhills the temps definitely drop.

    Also once the temp climbs up to 180-200 a quick run up to about 55 seems to move enough air to noticeably bring the temps back down a bit. Same with running a downhill section and not putting load on the trans the temps will get back down to the 160 range. I seem to be running very hot though up in the 200 range and thats after the cooler.

    So I guess D3 running uphill at 3-4k for 15-20 min will put your temp way over 200. I know I had angry trans symptoms quite often at the Dragon in the past.
     
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  12. Monk

    Monk Well-Known Member

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    Good report thx....... I've yet to have any signs of my tranny being upset, I've also changed the fluid 3 times since I've had it, same with brake fluid..... Cheap maintenance.......... Your numbers even after being run though the cooler will give me something to be aware of, and for me not to prolong any time at high rev in low gear.
     
  13. Nix

    Nix Jötunn Moderator

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    Yes, running hot kills the fluid much quicker. Doing just the 3qt drain/fill more often is a great way to keep it healthy in there.
     
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  14. Bulkybear

    Bulkybear Well-Known Member

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    I think monk is talking about a common feature in newer cars that completely shuts the throttle down if you hit the brake and throttle is still applied. They do this so that if the throttle sticks for whatever reason you can still stop the car rather than having a runaway car.

    Pretty sure it was made mandatory after all the runaway Toyotas hit the news.
     

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