Accelerating Through Slow Turns Effectively?

Velox

Velox

Well-Known Member
48
90
Naples, FL
Vehicle Model
2013 Civic EX
Body Style
Coupe
I have a '13 EX Coupe and absolutely love it. However, I have not yet discovered the most effective way to come out of a corner quickly due to the lower power of the EX (140hp at the crank). My issue arises when I'm cruising at 45mph (the legal speed limit, of course :D) and slow down to take a 90 degree turn onto another road. I disengage the clutch and switch into neutral when I get close as I'm applying the brakes gently. Then, when I'm about to enter the turn I switch into 2nd gear without engaging the clutch. Then when I'm about to exit the turn, I try to rev match while the clutch is still disengaged and let out the clutch pulling away in 2nd gear.

My problem is the serious lack of power in the low end. I usually end up exiting the turn at about 2,000 - 2,300 RPM in 2nd gear and there simply isn't enough power at this RPM to pull hard. Switching into 1st gear is not possible due to the lock-out feature (and I've been taught not to switch into 1st unless stationary) so I'm confused how to draw more power at this speed.

I know a great solution would be to buy an Si but that's not really the solution I'm looking for - lol. Does anyone have a suggestion on how to pull harder out of slower turns like this by changing the driving technique rather than the car?

I'm not talking about speeding, racing, or doing anything illegal. I'm just trying to get a little faster within the confines of the law ;)
 
I don't know if it'd change things much, but I do not drop into neutral in a turn. I actually rarely every put it into neutral unless I'm sitting at a red light. I ride the gear I'm in while braking, and then usually downshift into the gear by the time I'm at the corner. I turn the wheel, and I'm starting to release the clutch and apply the gas to exit the turn. I don't rev-match on turns like that. I'm usually applying a good amount of gas while releasing the clutch to accelerate out of the turn.
 
I'd say when coming into a curve where shifting down is required to keep the rpms where you want them, you'd need to keep the whole drive train engaged at all times with the exception of changing gears. The longer you take to change gears the more time the DT will have to get out of sync, and that's where you find yourself wondering where your power went........ So if you actually go into N(out of control), to coast while braking, so to speak, you're also losing the most important part of cornering, and that is smoothness. You want to keep the decel/brake/<shift/unbrake/steer........ and that's before reaching the apex....... You want all your braking done before you start turning the car, and no later than 1/4 into the turn(slow-in-fast-out...is the fastest way though a turn.)
But you want to do all this stuff with the least amount of action that will upset the cars balance........... 1st thing is not to hit the brake, but press just hard enough for the suspension to settle so as you increase the power on the brakes the suspension doesn't have very for to go .... so you're controlling the for/aft balance.... same with shifting, you want the DT rpm's to help hold the wheel/surface tension, not jumping from grab/coast/excel , smooth gives traction the most help than anything else you can do.
 
I did some errands today and tried out your suggestions (other than heel toe shifting since I can't get my foot to do that and didn't want to crash trying to force it).

webby: If you don't rev match after coasting (I assume your clutch is disengaged when coming to a turn to avoid stalling at 20mph in 4th gear?) do you feel a large jerk when you start accelerating out of the turn in 2nd gear? I try to rev match to get my engine speed up to the transmission speed since I coast up to the turn and my engine drops to idle RPM. Do you allow the clutch to be engaged in 4th gear (or whatever you were driving at 45mph in) all the way until you change into 2nd or do you coast at all while your vehicle speed is decreasing?

Monk: I tried to keep the drive train engaged at all times during a few turns. They were incredibly rough without perfect rev matching when downshifting into 2nd for the turn but they did seem to give better power transfer coming out of the turn. Since you have an EX too (I assume we have similar gear ratios), can I ask how you approach a turn exactly in a 45 mph zone? Do you engage 3rd gear at all on your way to 2nd for the turn or just go straight to 2nd and allow your car to rev high as you're approaching the turn?

Do you guys know of any good video tutorials on how to do this type of stuff? I know there are tutorials on heel toe shifting and some advanced stuff, but I haven't been able to find a video (from a seemingly credible source) about doing basic road turns faster than normal or other daily driving things.
 
In one line always stay in a gear and always stay above a certain RPM, something like 4k, not sure of where the sweet spot for non Si is. on the Si I would be at 4.5 or more according to how crazy you want to go.

In more than one line:

As many said heel and toe, always keep it in a gear, except for quick transitions from one to another and if want power always stay in a higher RPM with your gear.

For your case assuming you come in third start braking to adjust speed, drop it in 2nd at a higher RPM and stay there and at the right moment accelerate. The idea is to keep the engine in the sweet spot of the RPM range.

Heel and toe is not essential since I assume you do not plan to do this at the grips limit. First focus on the speed RPM and proper gear changes and then heel and toe will make it better but not needed as a first step.

For the Si each gear is roughly 1000 RPMs when going up or down, not sure for the ex.

As for how to practice this safely try a racing game like GT5 or a more serious one like iRacing, or go to a very big empty parking lot with no poles and go at it. Go easy at it since you do not want to drop it in lower speed at too high of a speed. I first perfect something in virtual world before going on the road with it since I can afford mistakes that way. If you want to be extra smooth choose a beast in the game that will send you in the sides flying if you do not heel and toe properly or rev match well. iRacing the Lotus 79 is a really wild car with a clutch and regular gears.

A very simple practice is when you brake anywhere always change gears to match the speed and never keep the clutch down for more than changing gears. This is also a safety thing since your car will always be able to go places if need be.
 
Velox ... I'd go with what Dragos said,& his Video .
As far as matching yours to my EX, that probably won't work as mine is an automatic......... That is not to say I know not of which I speak...... I have been racing cars and mc's since the late 60's and am a retired semi driver. This is my 1st automatic, so I've not been out of the ST game for more than a half-year.
But I'd say staying at 4000+ would be a good starting point, rpms are your friend.
Some ppl are freaked out at the sound of high rpms, a way to combat that is to turn the music off and put some ear plugs in. You'll still be able to hear what you want, ie; the engine ... just not so loud. I wear plugs on my mc all the time, and can hear the things I want to hear, but at a less intense level.
 
Velox said:
webby: If you don't rev match after coasting (I assume your clutch is disengaged when coming to a turn to avoid stalling at 20mph in 4th gear?) do you feel a large jerk when you start accelerating out of the turn in 2nd gear? I try to rev match to get my engine speed up to the transmission speed since I coast up to the turn and my engine drops to idle RPM. Do you allow the clutch to be engaged in 4th gear (or whatever you were driving at 45mph in) all the way until you change into 2nd or do you coast at all while your vehicle speed is decreasing?
Click to expand...

Say I'm going 40mph in 4th and I'm starting to brake to hit a 90 degree turn...

I'll have it in 4th the entire time I'm braking. I'd say 9 times out of 10 I'm starting to initiate the downshift as I'm entering the turn....or while I'm turning the wheel. As I'm turning, I'd be using my left hand to turn the steering wheel while my right hand is downshifting into 2nd. It's a split second of depressing the clutch, and downshifting to 2nd....and then pressing on the gas as I release the clutch pedal. There isn't any jerking to the car, but I've also been driving stick for a long time. My RPM is never even close to idle rpm. If you put the car in neutral, I can see the rpms dropping like that. That is another negative aspect of coasting to a stop in neutral. It's actually worse on your gas mileage to coast in neutral believe it or not. Leave your car in whatever gear as you are approaching your turn. You car is nowhere near stalling at 20mph in 4th.
 
webby said:
Say I'm going 40mph in 4th and I'm starting to brake to hit a 90 degree turn...

I'll have it in 4th the entire time I'm braking. I'd say 9 times out of 10 I'm starting to initiate the downshift as I'm entering the turn....or while I'm turning the wheel. As I'm turning, I'd be using my left hand to turn the steering wheel while my right hand is downshifting into 2nd. It's a split second of depressing the clutch, and downshifting to 2nd....and then pressing on the gas as I release the clutch pedal. There isn't any jerking to the car, but I've also been driving stick for a long time. My RPM is never even close to idle rpm. If you put the car in neutral, I can see the rpms dropping like that. That is another negative aspect of coasting to a stop in neutral. It's actually worse on your gas mileage to coast in neutral believe it or not. Leave your car in whatever gear as you are approaching your turn. You car is nowhere near stalling at 20mph in 4th.
Click to expand...

You should write a book Webby.
 
Keep the car in the lowest gear possible if you want to accelerate out of the corner fast, just before slowing for a corner, downshift + tap the brake to slow it down, then part way through the corner transition to full on fuel again.

On corners with a decreasing radius where you want to 'tail brake' to get the back of the car to rotate, carry a bit more speed into the corner in the lowest gear possible, drive a bit deeper into the corner, turn and apply the brake with a firm smooth application to get the car to rotate. Once the car starts to really settle down on the suspension, transition to full on fuel again.

It will take a bit of time to become smooth at driving, if this is your first time with a standard transmission. There isn't a standard RPM drop in every gear, it's based on ratios. ( percentage ) For instance in my LX, if I shift at 3000, it will come in fairly smoothly at around 2000 RPM, that is 67% of the engine speed it was at. In other words, if you shifted it at 6000, it would be fairly rev matched at 4000.

If you are at say 2000 in 4th gear, and you want to come out of a corner fast, I would drop back to 2nd gear if possible, this should be around 4250 rpm or so, brake, enter the corner and accelerate out, you are close to the torque peak of the engine at that rpm.
 
A lot of racing schools will tell you to complete your shifts and braking before entering a corner as you do not want to shift during a corner. Say your cruising at 45 in 4th and you are going to be entering a corner that would require a 2nd gear power band to accelerate out of. As you approach the corner start breaking and dow shifting until you reach the correct entry speed and gear for the corner. At higher rpms the deceleration from just releasing the throttle should be enough to maintain your cornering speed. And since your already in 2nd at this point, after the apex of the turn you can start applying power and use the front wheel drive to kind of pull you out of the corner. This is what I do.
 
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