Brakes smoking

[dath1974]

Not sure what the debate would be... Fixed piston are clearly superior in my mind... I've worked on both, there really is no comparison. It comes down to what is good enough. For me, I'd prefer to go fixed on all four corners or leave it alone. May not ultimately be what I do, but that's what I prefer and what makes sense to me. I'm not worried about spending a few bucks on pads now since my stock pads are at 50% and have clearly been overheated. I need something to hold me over and if it works out okay for my diving, then great, if not, then I'll go another route. The implication that the car can't stop with the stock setup is flawed. I was in my car threshold braking from over 100 mph. Bigger brakes wouldn't have helped, especially on the street where they rarely get hot at all. On the track it just becomes a question of how long they can hold up before fade and if they can keep at the threshold for me during a session. I haven't tried that yet as I knew I'd smoke them if I kept on them that hard for more than a couple corners... Probably one of the guys who runs road courses will know better, but they won't know where my limits as a driver are, nor will they know the exact suspension and tire setup necessarily.

Just my opinion.

 

[Nix]

Brakes, you just need to learn it by making purchase mistakes, because your the typical 90% that rather spend $5000 on 100hp then $1500 to stop your vehicle.

Wow. Kinda condescending. Also, if he isn't overloading the stock system, why spend the money? Proper pads and fluid might do the trick.

Spending $$ on a BBK is unnecessary when a proper pad compound and high temp fluid will provide plenty of stopping power and fade resistance on the track. A BBK is only good at helping with heat dissipation if they are setup properly. An improper pad for the conditions will do no better than the stock calipers with stock pads. Overheating either one and your braking is gone. I suspect that the Buddy Club calipers, while a high quality part, are not coming with track pads. They won't be able to deal with the heat any better than the stock setup if they are taken on track.

Also, the stock SI caliper is indeed the same size as the TSX calipers that were a very very effective upgrade on the 8th gen civic for the track crowd. Hardly any of those guys had issues after switching to the TSX caliper/rotor setup. I think all he is really going to need is proper pads, fluid, and maybe a rotor upgrade later on.

Track pads are for the track.

Street pads are for the street.

Nothing does both well. Using a track pad on the street is as unsafe as a street pad on the track.

 

[team3d]

different drivers drives different... for me, bone stock ilx 2.4, i can't stop... maybe because it's very hot in los angeles, i do drive about 100 miles within 2-3 hours a day...

my car gets so hot that if you touch the wheel, it will burn your hand.

been doing this for 25 years now... it's the same.. people will keep buying all sorts of different compound brake pads till they realized it's cheaper just to buy a proper brake kit.

 

[Nix]

So you're saying if I take my car on the track I'm better off with a BBK and street pads than a proper track pad?

 

[team3d]

Wow. Kinda condescending. Also, if he isn't overloading the stock system, why spend the money? Proper pads and fluid might do the trick.

Spending $$ on a BBK is unnecessary when a proper pad compound and high temp fluid will provide plenty of stopping power and fade resistance on the track. A BBK is only good at helping with heat dissipation if they are setup properly. An improper pad for the conditions will do no better than the stock calipers with stock pads. Overheating either one and your braking is gone. I suspect that the Buddy Club calipers, while a high quality part, are not coming with track pads. They won't be able to deal with the heat any better than the stock setup if they are taken on track.

Also, the stock SI caliper is indeed the same size as the TSX calipers that were a very very effective upgrade on the 8th gen civic for the track crowd. Hardly any of those guys had issues after switching to the TSX caliper/rotor setup. I think all he is really going to need is proper pads, fluid, and maybe a rotor upgrade later on.

Track pads are for the track.

Street pads are for the street.

Nothing does both well. Using a track pad on the street is as unsafe as a street pad on the track.

so, $400 for tsx front calipers & rotors (rebuild) $350 for carbotech xp10 front & xp8 rear.... that's $750.. you can pick a used buddy club calipers kit for $700 shipped...

 

[Nix]

You were correct about the 9th gen Si caliper being the same as the TSX/Accord V6 calipers. TSX calipers are less than $200.

So, already running the larger caliper. Also, same problem. Track pads vs street pads. The standard high performance street pad can't hold up to track temps and abuse.

And your wheel being hot to the touch to burn your hand? The plastic parts under your hood get that hot and don't melt. If you can't stop under normal conditions it's not cause you don't have a BBK. It's cause your pads can't take the heat and you need a better pad, not a larger caliper. Or you need a more aggressive compound.

 

[team3d]

So you're saying if I take my car on the track I'm better off with a BBK and street pads than a proper track pad?

i never say it's better for street or better for the track,

and.... you need to read carefully before question me....

did i ever made a statement it's better with bbk & street pads than proper track pad ?

 

[Nix]

been doing this for 25 years now... it's the same.. people will keep buying all sorts of different compound brake pads till they realized it's cheaper just to buy a proper brake kit.

So what's a proper brake kit then? Pad compounds, friction coefficients, and operating temps are completely different and relevant to the functioning of the brakes. You do push the Buddy Clubs, which are a great product, but come loaded with street pads right?

you can pick a used buddy club calipers kit for $700 shipped...

 

[team3d]

i do not recommend "bbk" because our stock master cylinder can't pump enough brake fluid to clamp down 327mm+ rotors...

same as TL type-s brembo... you need to upgrade the master cylinder before doing tls brembo or bbk


i only recommend buddy club fixed calipers upgrade with stock size rotors (300mm).... because it's proven & the piston sizes are perfect for our stock master cylinder... spoon sports is also good, but no one will wanna spend $1600 when you can spend $1100 for the same result.

the difference between me & every other .com store is i only sell products that's been tested on my car or any of the 9 ball racing family's 9th gen civic.i don't recommend products base on opinions or off internet... i need to used it before i can determined if it's good for 9th gen or snake oil.

i don't mind tsx set up for stock civic or with basic bolt on's.... not on a force induction vehicle...

 

[Nix]

I guess technically the Buddy Clubs don't count as a "true" BBK then. I'll concede that point. But still no mention of pad upgrades or fluid upgrades. I do really appreciate the help and knowledge you have though. Especially with fitments and clearance and such. But even a Buddy Club caliper won't help if you overheat the pads and fluid that are not made for track temps.

Even without upgrading the BMC, you can still run the larger calipers. You just end up with more pedal travel, which some track guys prefer since it allows for more modulation within the brake.

Hey, since you carry Project Mu parts, do you carry their pads also? Would it be possible to test fit the PBF304 B-Sport pads in a stock 9th gen Si caliper? They seem to be a pretty good dual purpose pad. Not ideal for heavily demanding track sessions but their operating temps start at 0 while a lot of track pads start at 250F and up.

• Rotor Temp: 0~500℃ (0-932 F)
• Friction – 0.32~0.42μ
• Applications – Street Driving, Performance Driving, Light Track Duty

 

[Nix]

Wait, what 300mm doesn't count as a BBK? Wilwood lists their 300mm brake kit as a BBK on this website....

So it is or it isn't a BBK at 300mm?

http://www.fkxracing.com/WILWOOD-4-POT-BBK-BIG-BRAKE-KIT-12-14-HONDA-CIVIC-140-119FKX.htm

 

[team3d]

So what's a proper brake kit then? Pad compounds, friction coefficients, and operating temps are completely different and relevant to the functioning of the brakes. You do push the Buddy Clubs, which are a great product, but come loaded with street pads right?

i don't make any recommendations on pads because i have not use any brands other than the 2 choices that comes with the buddy club caliper kit... street pads (400c) or race pads (600C) ...

however i am working closely with mackin industries on project mu brake pads... i am still reading all their compounds options. then i will buy all the ones i think that's ideal & will start testing each pads on 9th gen civic... so by 2015 springs, i will start selling project mu pads.

 

[Nix]

Which ones are you running on your car currently?

 

[team3d]

Wait, what 300mm doesn't count as a BBK? Wilwood lists their 300mm brake kit as a BBK on this website....

So it is or it isn't a BBK at 300mm?

http://www.fkxracing.com/WILWOOD-4-POT-BBK-BIG-BRAKE-KIT-12-14-HONDA-CIVIC-140-119FKX.htm

stock si is 300mm rotors, stock r18 is 282mm rotors.... both cars have a very similar size master cylinder... so for r18 to upgrade to oem si brake kit (300mm) or wilwood 300mm bbk is ideal....

also, you need to understand this wilwood bbk uses mini 4 pot calipers, the piston size is very small. it's why you only see me selling these kit to r18 civic, not si civic.

and to your point, i don't recommend bbk for 9th gen k24z7 Si civic unless you upgrade your master cylinder. we weren't talking about r18, which is a totally different car with totally different brake set up.

here is a caliper side by side comparison...

 

[team3d]

Which ones are you running on your car currently?

my ilx is now stock with type r rear sway bar, type r shocks, hfp springs & 225/45-17 tires. we are doing oem factory set up for testing purposes...

i have red buddy club calipers with street pads (it's not install at the moment)

this is how my ilx looks like before...



this is how the car looks like now...

 

[Nix]

Are these the same brakes then that you can't stop with?
Why would I want to run those?

different drivers drives different... for me, bone stock ilx 2.4, i can't stop... maybe because it's very hot in los angeles, i do drive about 100 miles within 2-3 hours a day.../QUOTE]

 

[team3d]

I guess technically the Buddy Clubs don't count as a "true" BBK then. I'll concede that point. But still no mention of pad upgrades or fluid upgrades. I do really appreciate the help and knowledge you have though. Especially with fitments and clearance and such. But even a Buddy Club caliper won't help if you overheat the pads and fluid that are not made for track temps.

Even without upgrading the BMC, you can still run the larger calipers. You just end up with more pedal travel, which some track guys prefer since it allows for more modulation within the brake.

Hey, since you carry Project Mu parts, do you carry their pads also? Would it be possible to test fit the PBF304 B-Sport pads in a stock 9th gen Si caliper? They seem to be a pretty good dual purpose pad. Not ideal for heavily demanding track sessions but their operating temps start at 0 while a lot of track pads start at 250F and up.

• Rotor Temp: 0~500℃ (0-932 F)
• Friction – 0.32~0.42μ
• Applications – Street Driving, Performance Driving, Light Track Duty

the buddy club kit I've been selling are what you called a caliper kit, everyone just call it bbk because it's easier to understand.

also, i don't want to push dot 4 brake fluid, ss brake lines to customers, like fkx racing braces, install 1 bar at a time... experience it... get the caliper kit first, put it on, see what's up... then you can decide if the set up is enough for it needs to be upgraded with brake lines, or fluid... that's how you gain experience... and wasting money on different compound pads is also another way to gain knowledge.

most street application, the set up is perfect for most individual. i have people complain after ss brake line install, it feels like slamming into the wall every time they hit the brake. which in my past experience. it's very rough for your passenger especially if it's a girl.

i don't stock any pads at the moment, we are just getting ready to sell group 4 & group 5 engine oils for 9th gen civic...

if f304 size will fit 9th gen civic si, i can order it for you....

 

[team3d]

Are these the same brakes then that you can't stop with?
Why would I want to run those?

i can't stop on my stock brake, remember my ilx is stock at the moment...

same with my r18 civic... my stock pads fades after stop & go in the city for only running 6-7 errands...

 

[Nix]

So, it sounds like you are overheating the stock pads and need to upgrade those to a set that can handle the heat. Lot cheaper than a caliper kit eh?

I ran my r18 hard at the dragon and on some mountainous runs without issue after upgrading the pads and fluid. Until I had exceeded the capabilities of the stock system with pads designed for the type of driving I was doing I didn't consider upgrading the calipers and rotors. It took a lot to exceed the 900F rating of a hi-po street pad. Tons of bite at low temps too. Those are a small caliper and I know you know how bad the rear drums are. AXXIS Ultimates are pretty serious if you are looking for something better than stock without going to a track pad that won't function around town. I only had brake fade once and that was after a 20min run of bringing it down from triple digits to mid 50s' repeatedly.

 

[Nix]

Pad fade can be caused by several factors. All friction materials have a coefficient of friction curve relating to temperature. Friction materials are designed to work at an optimum temperature when the coefficient of friction is the highest. When brakes are used too frequently, or if the pad material is not adequate for the temperature, then the coefficient of friction can decrease. Brake materials are different, and with enough temperature the material can melt and cause the coefficient of friction to rapidly decrease to the point where the material will melt and/or change its frictional characteristics and cause a lubrication effect.