Alignment questions

[Bulkybear]

Maybe @Nix can help with this but I lowered my 2012 Si on Eibach sportline springs. So far I love it. Havent gone in for an alignment yet though. I'm fine with the rear camber where it appears to be, not really wanting to invest in a camber kit. My question is about toe. Does lowering the car affect the toe. Toe is where the front tires point towards/away from each other right? I remember seeing that the factory alignment calls for a little bit of toe and that's my question. Everyone I've talked to said toe should always be set to 0. Even saw the older Japanese race driver say that to one of the tuners on American Touge. Can someone explain this to me. Thanks in advance.

 

[webby]

From @Yospeed 's site

Perhaps the easiest concept to visualize is toe. Toe represents the angle derived from pointing the tires inward or outward from a top-down view – much like looking down at your toes and angling them inward or outward.

Correct toe is paramount to even tread wear and extended tire life. If the tires are pointed inward or outward, they will scrub against the surface of the road and cause wear along the edges. Sometimes however, tread life can be sacrificed for performance or stability

Positive toe occurs when the front of both tires begins to face each other. Positive toe permits both wheels to constantly generate force against one another, which reduces turning ability. However, positive tow creates straighter driving characteristics.

Typically, rear wheel drive vehicles have slightly positive tow in the rear due to rolling resistance – causing outward drag in the suspension arms. The slight positive toe straightens out the wheels at speed, effectively evening them out and preventing excessive tire wear.

Negative toe is often used in front wheel drive vehicles for the opposite reason. Their suspension arms pull slightly inward, so a slight negative toe will compensate for the drag and level out the wheels at speed.

Negative toe increases a cars cornering ability. When the vehicle begins to turn inward towards a corner, the inner wheel will be angled more aggressively. Since its turning radius is smaller than the outer wheel due to the angle, it will pull the car in that direction.

Negative toe decreases straight line stability as a result. Any slight change in direction will cause the car to hint towards one direction or the other.
=========

Factory specs
-0.05 to 0.05 front
0.00 to 0.05 rear

 

[Bulkybear]

Awesome information. Thanks @webby

Now, do you know if toe is affected by lowering?

 

[webby]

@RedShiftChris 's comments on toe:

Chris' Performance Alignment Recommendations

Use at your own risk!
Important!!!

If you want to retain all the safety Honda built into your Honda Civic, then use the factory alignment settings!

If you have read the important note directly above, then please continue to my performance alignment recommendations below.

********************************************************
Street "Mild Performance"
Front Camber: -1.0°

(1 Ingalls bolt per side needed in upper hole.)

Front Toe: Factory setting

(0 total)

Rear Camber: -0.8° to -1.5°

(This range is the same as factory because not all Civic's had the same camber. Early on in the Civic's production, customers complained of too much wear on the inside edge of the rear tires; so Honda equipped some Civics with a "C" stamped upper rear control arm to reduce camber from approx -1.5 to approx -0.8. The less camber you run, the better your tire wear will be but the less grip you will have in back for extreme handling maneuvers. I would recommend -0.8 for anyone super concerned about tire wear and -1.5 if you want to retain the best rear grip at all handling levels (because that is where Honda originally set it.) Either the Ingalls rear camber adjusters or Skunk2 (or any other) replacement arms provide the adjustment necessary.

Rear Toe: 0.06° per side (a positive number is toe in)
(on the safe end of the available factory range.)


Street "Aggressive"
Front Camber: -1.4°

(1 Ingalls bolt per side needed in upper hole at max adjustment setting.)

Front Toe: 0 total

(0 toe is factory setting but also a good aggressive street spec. Or you can try a hair of toe out, but generally toe out will destroy tires fast as a daily driver.)

Rear Camber: -1.5°

(provides better rear grip for extreme handling. Either the Ingalls rear camber adjusters or Skunk2 (or any other) replacement arms provide the adjustment necessary.)

Rear Toe: 0.04° per side (a positive number is toe in)

(on the more aggressive end of the available factory range.)


Race (Autocross or Track)
Front Camber: -2.0° or more

(2 Ingalls bolts per side needed at max adjustment setting provides a hair over -2.0°. Some super fast people are running over -3° with camber plates on coilovers. The ASR camber plates by themselves provide only up to -2.5° camber because more is not possible without notching the ~4" hole at the upper strut mounting position...and this is not a legal mod for most race classes. To get more than -2.5°, you must use a combination of camber plates and camber bolts.)

Front Toe: -0.16° to -0.32° toe per side (a negative number is toe out)

(This will make the car wander when going straight but will drastically improve cornering.... the range -0.16° to -0.32° equals 1/16-1/8" toe out for those doing toe settings manually. Best place to start is -0.16° if you are not sure. Toe out will chew up the inside edge of the front tires on a daily driver; so this is a race-only setting.)

Rear Camber: -2.0 or more

(more rear camber provides more consistent grip in back through the run/lap so you can attack the run all the way to the end without loosing the rear end. Either the Ingalls rear camber adjusters or Skunk2 (or any other) replacement arms provide the adjustment necessary.)

Rear Toe: 0.00° - 0.02° toe per side (a positive number is toe in)

(run 0 rear toe if you can handle it.... but you definitely want to start with 0.02° toe in because 0 toe or toe out in back can creep up and bite you hard if you are not ready for it.)

 

[webby]

From every alignment sheet I think I've seen posted, the user was out of spec on toe.

Example

 

[Bulkybear]

Ok so I definitely need to go get an alignment. How long does it usually take for springs to completely settle?

 

[webby]

Ok so I definitely need to go get an alignment. How long does it usually take for springs to completely settle?

I always recall reading people say it takes a couple weeks for springs to settle, but @jrotax101 knows way more about suspension stuff.... this is what he said in another post:

Springs don't settle. They have some variance based on how close they are to the stated rates, but it is still going to take 100lbs to compress it X amount when it's new, and when it's a week old.

 

[Nix]

On a macpherson strut (front of the civic) lowering does change the toe. I can't remember if it gains toe in or out though. On the multi-link (rear of the civic) toe doesn't change but camber does.

Toe will effect tire wear and turn in vs stability. Slight toe in is usually better than toe out. If the tires are toe out then the car will want to pull to either side. The closer you get to zero the less wear and odd handling you will get.

 

[webby]

On a macpherson strut (front of the civic) lowering does change the toe. I can't remember if it gains toe in or out though. On the multi-link (rear of the civic) toe doesn't change but camber does.

Toe will effect tire wear and turn in vs stability. Slight toe in is usually better than toe out. If the tires are toe out then the car will want to pull to either side. The closer you get to zero the less wear and odd handling you will get.

the rear toe on the sheet I posted above was way out prior to alignment

 

[jrotax101]

@webby - progressive springs may settle a little, but linear springs shouldn't.

Any other parts that are rubber and newly introduced to the system may take time to "form".

 

[Bulkybear]

@webby - progressive springs may settle a little, but linear springs shouldn't.

Any other parts that are rubber and newly introduced to the system may take time to "form".

Do you have any kind of insight as to when I would call them settled? They certainly do feel softer than when I first put them on.

 

[jrotax101]

I often hear a week thrown around. Obviously depends if you drive 2 miles a day vs 20 though.

 

[Bulkybear]

I drive it a few hours ever other weekend usually

 

[pukemon]

Sounds like somebody needs to pop in gran turismo and go to school. Iirc the first gran turismo went into great detail about these things teaching you how to setup cars to the car, your driving and/or track. We used to be gran turismo freaks when it first came out and we'd go home and tweak our cars and when playing together sometimes we'd have several profiles or same car with different tunes/tweaks for different tracks.