Amazon, Mobil 1 & Valvoline Oil Compared

[Bruce Bartlow]

Last note. My biggest sale of oil analysis test kits (pre-paid) was to a food processing company in King City, CA. Why them? Money. Big money. If those guys need to stop production to service a million dollar piece of equipment, guess what? They lose production... sometimes millions in lost revenue.

They need to know when a piece of equipment needs servicing BEFORE it breaks down. That way they can perform maintenance on the weekends or schedule production around it. I never sold them on the Amsoil industrial lubes...(very difficult to compete with Shell) but selling oil analysis was a no-brainer.

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

@Bruce Bartlow have you tested the Castrol EDGE extended performance advanced Full synthetic by chance?

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Have not. Let's do it! I used Castrol for years back in the day. Not familiar with the new Edge product... but Castrol has always stood behind their products. In fact, at one time they guaranteed any engine to last a minimum of 100,000 miles if the mechanic would document that the engine had a Castrol-only diet.

 

[mySIck]

I am going to get some this weekend and try it out. And once I get some wear I am going to use my test on it to see how it hold up.

 

[mySIck]

I am going to get some this weekend and try it out. And once I get some wear I am going to use my test on it to see how it hold up.

 

[webby]

the valvoline "full synthetic" according to BITOG's forum - "primarily group III with PAO blended in"

 

[sunofwolf]

Misleading info from amsoil is lying in my book and actually worse, more like propaganda you get from your local news paper's or politician. the weather is another beef I got, how about the postman putting trash in your mail box, or that robo calling from india, the list goes on and on.

 

[sunofwolf]

the valvoline "full synthetic" according to BITOG's forum - "primarily group III with PAO blended in"

Nothing wrong with that-should work fine in a Honda si, mobil one 0-20 same thing, what about this magic Pensoil?

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

I am going to get some this weekend and try it out. And once I get some wear I am going to use my test on it to see how it hold up.

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Excellent Idea!! How about a little side bet.... your Castrol Edge versus my Pennzoil Ultra Platinum?

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

Nothing wrong with that-should work fine in a Honda si, mobil one 0-20 same thing, what about this magic Pensoil?

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Okay, @mySIck they've already spilled the beans and played their hand with "Group III". Oh, with a little "PAO" thrown in for marketing purposes, haha. Don't be misled it's a lowly Group III (more canned laughter) which means I win by default. Might as well be slugging it out with Mobile 1. A fine oil, to be sure, but you could use dino oil with basically the same results.

So no, on second thought I cannot take your money (tempting though) even in the form of a Bogart's dinner, probably the best steakhouse within at least 100 miles of Asheville. http://www.bogartswaynesville.com (Our Dragon dinner hangout) You'll love the filet.

Doesn't matter... next time we do the Dragon i'll treat anyway. Don't be late!

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

Truth be told I don't know the area that well... I should have said 96 miles (not 100) because Knoxville is 96.3 miles from Waynesville and I'm sure they have great steak houses too. Still, Bogart's in Waynesville is an epic end to one of our classic drives, found here:

https://goo.gl/maps/SKbCQsEzcZv

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

the valvoline "full synthetic" according to BITOG's forum - "primarily group III with PAO blended in"

Isn't @webby the best! Newcomers should listen up... nobody does instant "on-the-fly" research like the @webby himself. Nobody. You're with a group (and fearless leader) who actually cares about the website he runs and the people in it. That's why I'm still here after 7 years.

 

[webby]

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Okay, @mySIck they've already spilled the beans and played their hand with "Group III". Oh, with a little "PAO" thrown in for marketing purposes, haha. Don't be misled it's a lowly Group III (more canned laughter) which means I win by default. Might as well be slugging it out with Mobile 1. A fine oil, to be sure, but you could use dino oil with basically the same results.

So no, on second thought I cannot take your money (tempting though) even in the form of a Bogart's dinner, probably the best steakhouse within at least 100 miles of Asheville. http://www.bogartswaynesville.com (Our Dragon dinner hangout) You'll love the filet.

Doesn't matter... next time we do the Dragon i'll treat anyway. Don't be late!

from BITOG - penzoil rep - talking about pennzoil platinum with pureplus and ultra platinum with pureplus -


"As far as Base Oil Groups: the Group categories are not ratings, they are categories based on the API 1509 classification system. For example, Group I means conventional, solvent refined base oil (not considered synthetic); Group II means hydroprocessed/hydrocracked base oil (not considered synthetic); Group III means all hydroprocessing/hydrocracking + isomerization base oil (which is considered synthetic); Group III can also mean Gas to Liquids (GtL), which is what the Pennzoil Platinum motor oils with PurePlus Technology are made from (immensely simplified, GtL means: from Natural Gas/Methane to hydrocracker to base oil)(which is also considered synthetic); Group IV means Poly Alpha Olefin/PAO base oil (considered synthetic). Group V means everything else (like vegetable oil, PAG

The Pennzoil Platinum and Pennzoil Ultra Platinum motor oils with PurePlus Technology are both made using the Group III Gas to Liquids base oil, which is a truly synthesized from natural gas synthetic base oil. But please remember, todays PCMO engine oils contain somewhere between 18-23% additives so, you can have the greatest base oil, but if you couple it with a mediocre additive package, you will have a mediocre finished product! This is where our PurePlus name derives from: Gas to Liquids Pure base oil + the most advanced Plus additive package = the most advanced synthetic motor oil on the market today!"

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So both are labeled as group III. I don't know if you thought they were group IV?

 

[bootyluvr]

Ummm I'm out.

Too much reading. I blame sunofwolf lol [emoji23]

 

[mySIck]

Looks like I have a lot more homework to do. I'll be honest I didn't know anything about the group III until you brought it up.

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

Misleading info from amsoil is lying in my book and actually worse, more like propaganda you get from your local news paper's or politician. the weather is another beef I got, how about the postman putting trash in your mail box, or that robo calling from india, the list goes on and on.

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This is awesome @webby. Yes, PAO is what Amsoil and other true synthetics use. (Or at least used previously... I can't speak for Amsoil anymore) Point is, what qualifies as a synthetic has been challenged legally, and now the requirements are much looser than before. A so-called "synthetic" no longer needs to be a PAO.

This is unfortunate in at least one respect. PAO's built a solid reputation for the synthetics industry.... and now anything that's "man-made" is technically a synthetic, but can also be pure crap.

The statement that Ultra Plat was a Group IV was an assumption on my part. Why would I make such an assumption? Strictly based on how it performed, i.e., given that it matched up so favorably with other Group IV's i've used. (I also like the gas base part... it does keep the engine cleaner) Others in BITOG have had similar positive experiences, and they run their vehicles and other equipment much harder than I do. Even when using more extended drain intervals (with Pennzoil) they would get their Blackstone reports back and commonly use the word "stout" when describing what they thought of the oil. So it had the smell of a PAO from the beginning, though I haven't read BITOG in a couple years now.... a guy can spend all day in there.

In the end, it means that a shootout between M1 and Ultra Plat might be a fair fight after all. They are both Group III (technically a weaker base than PAO) which means the oil will depend more heavily on its additive package.

BTW, even a PAO needs an additive package. You need detergents, extreme pressure agents, dispersants, etc. PAO is just a better base that will last longer and do a better job generally. (From what Amsoil says there are even different grades of PAO too) But the comments you quoted are absolutely correct....additives are where the action is.

The fact that Pennzoil doesn't promote extended oil changes should have been a clue it wasn't a PAO. But there's another issue we haven't discussed... the API approval sticker. Amsoil doesn't have one. Has anyone ever wondered why?

First of all, API charges a fee to use their approval sticker. So there's that. There are also API minimum requirements. As dealers we were always told that Amsoil far exceeded API requirements... which might be true. But the real issue was the extended oil changes that Amsoil was promoting. Those don't seem to follow the API rule book... which is another reason that Amsoil's new "OE" oil DID have an API sticker. It was a lesser oil but it had API's approval... probably because it went along with manufacturer's guidelines with respect to oil change intervals.

Thanks webby... as I said, nobody does it better!
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Peace!

from BITOG - penzoil rep - talking about pennzoil platinum with pureplus and ultra platinum with pureplus -


"As far as Base Oil Groups: the Group categories are not ratings, they are categories based on the API 1509 classification system. For example, Group I means conventional, solvent refined base oil (not considered synthetic); Group II means hydroprocessed/hydrocracked base oil (not considered synthetic); Group III means all hydroprocessing/hydrocracking + isomerization base oil (which is considered synthetic); Group III can also mean Gas to Liquids (GtL), which is what the Pennzoil Platinum motor oils with PurePlus Technology are made from (immensely simplified, GtL means: from Natural Gas/Methane to hydrocracker to base oil)(which is also considered synthetic); Group IV means Poly Alpha Olefin/PAO base oil (considered synthetic). Group V means everything else (like vegetable oil, PAG

The Pennzoil Platinum and Pennzoil Ultra Platinum motor oils with PurePlus Technology are both made using the Group III Gas to Liquids base oil, which is a truly synthesized from natural gas synthetic base oil. But please remember, todays PCMO engine oils contain somewhere between 18-23% additives so, you can have the greatest base oil, but if you couple it with a mediocre additive package, you will have a mediocre finished product! This is where our PurePlus name derives from: Gas to Liquids Pure base oil + the most advanced Plus additive package = the most advanced synthetic motor oil on the market today!"

=====

So both are labeled as group III. I don't know if you thought they were group IV?

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

In my ongoing series in Hack Tribology, I need to reiterate my earlier comments on V.I. improvers, or simply Viscosity Improvers and end with a question.

Viscosity improvers are additives too, obviously. Those are the additives which make the oil flow differently in a wide range of temperatures. But they are also the lightest elements and burn off the fastest, meaning that eventually you don't have a multi-vis oil.

I'd be interested to know whether my theory of limiting the viscosity band (to limit the use of VI) is an accurate one. I forgot where I heard it so it's not like something that was drilled into my head over several years. But we've all seen the 10w - 40 or even 10w-50 viscosity bands. Question is, will the 10w - 50 last as long as the 5-20 we see out there?

 

[sunofwolf]

penzoil oil has additives that sink to the bottom of the oil bottle, you might want to find out why. They look like little black specs,. My take on this change the oil early what ever you use, You can't really go by the label what's in this stuff. And Honda tranny doesn't last very long , at 17800 the tranny Honda oil was no good.

 

[mySIck]

penzoil oil has additives that sink to the bottom of the oil bottle, you might want to find out why. They look like little black specs,. My take on this change the oil early what ever you use, You can't really go by the label what's in this stuff. And Honda tranny doesn't last very long , at 17800 the tranny Honda oil was no good.

How did you oil look?

 

[sunofwolf]

How did you oil look?

Honda tranny oil looked blacker then fresh Honda oil, it wasn't that bad but needed to be changed. 17,800 and six years, I wouldn't expect the Honda oil to still be like fresh fill. Honda tranny oil is likely to be fairly cheap stuff to make, not saying its bad stuff, just don't expect it to last super long. I would have changed it much sooner because of alu flakes in new tranny's are likely to around. Only way to get that out is change the fluid.

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

Honda tranny oil looked blacker then fresh Honda oil, it wasn't that bad but needed to be changed. 17,800 and six years, I wouldn't expect the Honda oil to still be like fresh fill. Honda tranny oil is likely to be fairly cheap stuff to make, not saying its bad stuff, just don't expect it to last super long. I would have changed it much sooner because of alu flakes in new tranny's are likely to around. Only way to get that out is change the fluid.

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Totally agree on both counts @sunofwolf: Just change it.

Generally speaking, all mass marketed oils have developed to a very high level, evidenced by the progression of SD, SE, SF, SG and so on. Each step means the oil meets a more stringent performance criteria. So all these API rated oils are much better than before. If that way they've "caught up" to the synthetics. To what extent they've caught up, I don't know. But enough. Enough so that we don't need to worry that using regular oil is a huge compromise like it used to be for high performance or turbo charged engines.

I happen to enjoy the study of lubricants. But the bottom line, as you said, is to change it. I change the MTF every other oil change, or about every 7,000 - 9,000 miles. Honda's MTF seems fine... but I've also used Torco with roughly the same report from Blackstone. For engine oil, it's now a steady diet of Pennzoil Ultra Platinum. I've been surprised how well it holds up ever after 7,000 miles. Ditto the TBN readings... which means the Ultra could go a lot further than 7,000.

By the way, Honda's 3rd gear is almost always the first to go... those synchros get beat up by the power shifts. But it's also because of the structure inside the tranny. There are simply so many things that can go wrong with 3rd gear. So hopefully changing the MTF helps that. Heaven forbid I'd stop power shifting.