Caster out of spec

xXCiviXx

xXCiviXx

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Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
Vehicle Model
Si
Body Style
Coupe
So i just had an alignment done after lowering my 2013 Si coupe on Buddy Club N+ coils. Toe and camber are all in Spec now but my caster is off. The mechanic told me they cannot adjust the caster unless I look into an adjustable caster kit. The vehicle does pull to the left a bit, which it has been doing since I had winter tires installed in the fall from the same shop. Before the winter tires I never had an issue. I don't believe the caster is off from lowering considering I had this pull for a little while now. Could it be a control arm issue or do I need to seriously look into a caster kit?

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There's no possible way that your caster can adjust by that much, or at all. Whatever that shop did, tell them to put it back to the way the caster was. I'm not even sure how they managed to change those orientations. Did you notice a change in steering feel or does the steering wheel stay centered while driving in a straight road?
 
the vehicle leans to the left. Some compensation is required to maintain a straight line but not anything drastic. I haven't exceeded 50km/h since I installed my coils and typically drive on they highway. Should I avoid highway driving until they put the caster back?

I have a couole other questions regarding caster as i was only really aware of camber and toe needing to be adjusted before this. Would the caster have changed by them adjusting the other aspects of the alignment? Is it better to have the caster equal on both sides even if "out of spec"? Would you consider the vehicle to be unsafe to be out of Spec but equal. Or more so the way it currently is?

Could the front sway bar cause this if there is an uneven amount of tension on the struts? Or a damaged control arm?

I read that if the rear is lower than factory height, it will cause the front to move to a more positive caster. I imagine this refers to a stock suspension maintaining ride height in the front but if i raise the left rear height will this help reduce the angle?

Also does the fact that I had a pull before installing coils have any role in this? I thought it was just my winter tires being softer causing this but once I put my summers on, it was still there. And my winters were installed at this same shop. Is it possible they damaged something while jacking up my car and removing/ replacing wheels.

Sorry for all the questions. It is really confusing to me that they changed the caster from the initial setting to the final and where this even came from?
 
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I went to the shop and they're going to redo the alignment. The mechanic I talked to gave me a crash course on alignments today and explained what could have gone wrong and any forsee able issue. He also said the initial reading was probably accurate and that the tires or something may have moved causing the altered reading. Whatever happened they're going to look at it again for me.
 
Yeah, caster isn't adjustable on these cars. I don't even know of any coils that have a caster adjustment on them.

TL/DR - If the alignment is off after installing a part it might be the part that is off or their machine. If they left your car pulling to the left twice, I'd go somewhere else.

On to the Too Long part.......

The only way the caster can be off is:

if it came from the factory like that or the subframe got shifted.

You have a bent LCA

The top hats/mounts on the coils are uneven. <- this is my bet. This is also not the first time I've read of someone have this issue with the N+ coils.

Hopefully they at least tried loosening and shifting the top mounts before bolting everything down.

I would take the car somewhere else if this place has left it pulling to the left and you've had it aligned there more than once. In all honesty take it to a Honda dealer. Some of them are easy to work with and some are not. If you go in and tell them the issues you are having and that you would like to pay to have an alignment done they are usually helpful. When people try to get stuff done under warranty is when they run into issues. I've never had trouble at a dealership service center, I might be lucky, but I've always said "hey I need this fixed can you guys do it?" My car has some significant mods on it and they mention it but never gave me crap about it.

Be upfront with them that you want to pay for an alignment, that you have aftermarket parts, that there is something wrong, & you and this other place have not been able to figure out. Call ahead and talk to the service advisor. I've found them helpful if you are upfront about everything. Especially mention that you would like to bring it in for their opinion on the LCAs and the subframe shifting possibly. At least then you will know if all your frame parts are straight and the coils are the issue. They will probably charge you a diagnostic fee, the alignment fee, and maybe an hour of labor at the worst. Its possible they would just do that alignment, charge you for that, and let the rest go.

I suspect its the top mounts on the coils being off since everything was in spec before those went on.


You could always pick up the Blox Rigid Collar Kit. It is a set of inserts for the subframe to ensure that everything is aligned as perfectly as possible. When the cars are assembled at the factory by robots they use wobble bolts so things go together quickly. It gets close but not perfect. Good enough for the mass produced car and why there is a range of setting considered acceptable. I don't know if the blox kit will fit your car as it was made for the 2006-2011 civics but it may be worth a shot.

If you get the blox kit and don't use it I would pick it up from you. I had been thinking about getting it anyway.


There is also a spoon collar kit as well.
Spoon:
http://www.icbmotorsport.com/spspricokit.html


Blox:

http://www.jhpusa.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=10050
 
Nix said:
Yeah, caster isn't adjustable on these cars. I don't even know of any coils that have a caster adjustment on them.

TL/DR - If the alignment is off after installing a part it might be the part that is off or their machine. If they left your car pulling to the left twice, I'd go somewhere else.

On to the Too Long part.......

The only way the caster can be off is:

if it came from the factory like that or the subframe got shifted.

You have a bent LCA

The top hats/mounts on the coils are uneven. <- this is my bet. This is also not the first time I've read of someone have this issue with the N+ coils.

Hopefully they at least tried loosening and shifting the top mounts before bolting everything down.

I would take the car somewhere else if this place has left it pulling to the left and you've had it aligned there more than once. In all honesty take it to a Honda dealer. Some of them are easy to work with and some are not. If you go in and tell them the issues you are having and that you would like to pay to have an alignment done they are usually helpful. When people try to get stuff done under warranty is when they run into issues. I've never had trouble at a dealership service center, I might be lucky, but I've always said "hey I need this fixed can you guys do it?" My car has some significant mods on it and they mention it but never gave me crap about it.

Be upfront with them that you want to pay for an alignment, that you have aftermarket parts, that there is something wrong, & you and this other place have not been able to figure out. Call ahead and talk to the service advisor. I've found them helpful if you are upfront about everything. Especially mention that you would like to bring it in for their opinion on the LCAs and the subframe shifting possibly. At least then you will know if all your frame parts are straight and the coils are the issue. They will probably charge you a diagnostic fee, the alignment fee, and maybe an hour of labor at the worst. Its possible they would just do that alignment, charge you for that, and let the rest go.

I suspect its the top mounts on the coils being off since everything was in spec before those went on.


You could always pick up the Blox Rigid Collar Kit. It is a set of inserts for the subframe to ensure that everything is aligned as perfectly as possible. When the cars are assembled at the factory by robots they use wobble bolts so things go together quickly. It gets close but not perfect. Good enough for the mass produced car and why there is a range of setting considered acceptable. I don't know if the blox kit will fit your car as it was made for the 2006-2011 civics but it may be worth a shot.

If you get the blox kit and don't use it I would pick it up from you. I had been thinking about getting it anyway.


There is also a spoon collar kit as well.
Spoon:
http://www.icbmotorsport.com/spspricokit.html


Blox:

http://www.jhpusa.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=10050
Click to expand...
Thanks Nix!! That was excellently put and very informative! When you say the top mounts may be "off" do you mean imperfect product that's not level or possibly loose? Is there a way to fix that if it is the cause or do I need to look into a kit to compensate for that?

The mechanic told me that they did not touch the upper mount bolts.

As far as everything being in spec before coil install, I cannot verify that as I did not have an alignment done, but did have an issue after getting winter tires put on by the same shop. The issue was noticeable at highway speeds and the vehicle would pull left, then I compensate to straighten out and then the vehicle would quickly pull right, more than what I put into the steering, then after compensating again, would drive straight. I thought it was a tire issue as I never had winter tires before and they are softer than all seasons. I figured the issue would go away when I put my summer set up on, and it did help, but didn't completely solve the issue leaving me to believe it would be fixed with coil install and alignment.

Does this, in your opinion, reflect a possible LCA issue? I take very good care of my car and never hit curbs and generally do not take sharp or hard corners. I have "spirited" drives from time to time, but very infrequently and the roads in town where I work can be very bumpy and rough which I could see playing a potential role in LCA deformity

When I take my car in for the "check up" they said I'm welcome into bay while they do it. I know the mechanic fairly well and he's patient with me and explains everything in depth since I actually understand most of what he's explaining. I trust this particular guy but am less confident in the rest of the crew (like the guy who did my alignment yesterday)
 
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Most likely the top mounts on the coils are imperfect. But your caster was out before you swapped the new parts in. Did you get that alignment sheet when the coils were installed? Were the initial readings done with the N+ coils on or your stock suspension? Do you have an alignment sheet from the winter we could compare to? If so, was that done on the stock suspension?

They could try loosening and adjusting those top mounting bolts and see if the coils allow some slight movement that may bring it back in spec. Other than that I suspect the subframe may have shifted. I doubt you bent an LCA.

Its also possible their machine is off. Remote chance but still there.


Usually on the alignment sheet there is a before and after so you should have both sets of numbers. See if you can find your old alignment sheet and compare it to your new one.


on your current sheet you posted the initial caster on the L and R was 6.1 and 6.2

after the L was 7.8 and the R was 5.2

So the right side improved and the left side worsened.

OE Caster = 5.37 +/-0.5 deg


Im not really sure beyond that.


I guess when you go back in take your sheet with you and see if when the pull the car up on the machine that the readings they are starting from are the same as the sheet says. If not, then you know something is up with the machine itself.

Ex: it says your front Left camber is 0.1, if you go back and the machine says your front Left camber is -0.3 or +0.4 then something isn't right.
 
Nix said:
Did you get that alignment sheet when the coils were installed? Were the initial readings done with the N+ coils on or your stock suspension?
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This was the only alignment I have had done to this car. The before values are with the coils on. I haven't had an alignment with the stock suspension so unfortunately there is nothing to compare the stock to aftermarket suspension.

Nix said:
They could try loosening and adjusting those top mounting bolts and see if the coils allow some slight movement that may bring it back in spec. Other than that I suspect the subframe may have shifted. I doubt you bent an LCA.
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How can I check if the subframe shifted? Is there a way to realign it? I will also mention the upper mounting bolts and see what he says.

Nix said:
Its also possible their machine is off. Remote chance but still there.
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He did say that the brake may have let off slightly and the wheels may have moved while the mechanic was fixing the other issues causing the reading to be inaccurate since caster cannot be changed. He thinks the initial reading was most accurate if that was the case and he will confirm when it goes back on the hoist. Otherwise my caster is way out.

I finally had an opportunity to take it out this afternoon and there is a slight left sided pull. I cannot say for certain if it is caused by the highways here, which aren't in the greatest condition. If I'm more towards the right shoulder the car goes to the right. If I'm more towards the left lane it pulls to the left. It's not a severe pull and the car drives better than it did in the winter but it's still not ideal.
 
Can your top mount possibly be installed incorrectly? If a top mount camber adjuster is in an improper orientation (front to back), it can definitely change the caster.
 
That came into the conversation I had at the shop today. I was unable to confirm if there is an unequal bolt pattern but did not notice anything before I installed them. There is no adjustable camper plate on the top, although there is enough room to adjust camber where the uppermost of the lower strut bolts onto the knuckle
 
FYI.... If it were the road it would pull to the right, not left(Canada)...
 
Aside from what Nix has already said..
Check:
Tophat installation. if the 3 studs were put in the wrong holes, it messed up the geometry of the shock which pushes the steering knuckle forward, creating more positive caster.
Whatever they loosened, is messed up. Prior-After shows this.
Tie rod connections
LCA connections
Any washers used like the buddyclub camber bolts? Check correct installation.

Your initial positive caster was NOT bad. Caster is not a bad thing, it is just a characteristic of suspension design. More caster will give more stability at high speed.
 
Monk said:
FYI.... If it were the road it would pull to the right, not left(Canada)...
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Ya, but the roads here aren't great and it's hard to determine if the pull is from the road or the car. I talked with the mechanic again and was told that the air bag they use to align the wheel may have caused the sensors to move caused the altered reading. He also said with that big of a difference in caster the car would have a constant steady pull which it currently does not. There is a pull, but not as bad as it would be with the caster specs given. Hopefully I'll have another alignment done by the end of the week since I'm not really driving anywhere for a while.

Thank, jrotax. I really appreciate all the information everyone has provided in this thread. It's reasons like this why I love this forum!
 
Not to wear this out, but roads can be bad, but all(98%) roads have a higher crown in the middle so water won't pool(as much).

Also if you get a pull to the left while driving on the right lane, on different roads, it's not the road causing the pull to the left. I find that while I'm driving and get a rough feed-back, I have to remind myself that if it goes away when the pavement changes, it's the road, there's so many different surfaces to deal with for a lot of reasons, but the most consistent thing is the crown being higher in the center.
There are a lot of variances across America on "how high the crown is(drove semi's coast-to-coast). For instance Iowa has very high crowns, where Kansas "seems" almost flat, but isn't, or the rain would pool.

The reason I'm harping on this, is for every one to remember if anything feels strange, wait to see if it changes(goes back to normal) on the next section of road.
 
As a side note for peeps that ride MC's, there's a lot of riders that wonder why they're wearing their tyres more on the left of center than on the right, then worry about if the rear wheel is lined up correctly. Where it's two things that will cause this wear issue. One, is the primary, the crown of the road, and the 2nd is the most roads will have near the same amount of left/right curve, and the fact that every time we go around a left turn, it is actually longer than a right turn because the circumference of the curve is bigger/wider, so the bike will spend more time tilted to the left than the right.

I've never bothered to measure this factor on cars, but there's is probably some more wear to the right side of all four tyres of cars for this reason, although rotating the tyres on a car will counter this effect, if they are cross rotated.
 
Monk said:
Not to wear this out, but roads can be bad, but all(98%) roads have a higher crown in the middle so water won't pool(as much)
Click to expand...
True, but the town where I work has a very large heavy vehicle volume. The roads out of and around town are really worn down with lots of cracks and bumps in the pavement since these big trucks have the same route they travel several times a day. That's what makes it hardest to judge if it's road or vehicle causing the pull. When I go back home (about 5 hours south) the roads are much better and we'll maintained so that will be the most accurate show.

I appreciate your input! And as far as the roads changing the ride depending on the section of road, there is this ring road in Edmonton that makes me feel like I have a flat tire almost everytime I drive on it hahaha. But as soon as I turn off the feeling goes away
 
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