Amazon, Mobil 1 & Valvoline Oil Compared

[Bruce Bartlow]

Well its good to know that the Honda engine exceeds specs even, I would like to see a Dyno run going to 8,000. Post up video, someone must have done this. What makes honda engines hold up at that rpm? I can't even find out what the engine block is made out of or other internal parts-seems to be hidden.

_____________________

Right off the show room floor it is not worth pushing the fuel cut to 8k you will lose power at 7000 RPMs. I am sure I can find a video of someone with stock internals. I am sure most people do E-tuning so it makes it hard to find some dyno results some time.

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Wait a cotton-pickin. You wanted a dyno you got a dyno --- an extreme one at that. FYI, the new Type R puts out another 60bhp with a simple, non-aggressive Hondata reflash. Point is, Honda engines are often de-tuned, seemingly built to far exceed OEM specs, if desired. That's why thousands and thousands continue to buy them, and have for decades.

For owners of a stock Honda (driven only to church on Sunday mornings) those babied engines often last forever.

But for guys like @mySIck and I (and literally thousands and thousands of others) it's common knowledge that an engine's longevity will be reduced when adding higher performance hardware/software.... admittedly so. That's a choice many Honda owners willingly make.

[For the record, my last two Honda engines lasted 186,000 -- prior to being sold -- and 253,000 prior to an accident where an illegal had borrowed his friend's car without good tires, inadvertently pushing me into a ditch at 65mph during a rain storm. Thankfully no-one was hurt. But the pieces of metal we drive around didn't fare as well]

So here's the deal: If you want additional evidence of Honda's stout engine design, no problem, it can be provided without difficulty.

But don't keep moving the goalpost either.
________________

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

View attachment 59076 View attachment 59077 View attachment 59078 View attachment 59079

A little mix of TSX once I get off from work tonight I'll find some better ones.

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Yo, SICKman! Evening, sir. You're pretty serious about this build aren't ya buddy? So good luck on this one... and thanks for the dyno homework earlier.

Didn't you say you were using the TSX top end on this build? Heard really good things about that approach. It may not be my style to go "all-out"... but hoping you have a good outcome without any repercussions.

So we'll see you on the Dragon, right? Maybe not this year but next for sure. (Oh, but watch out... and be careful about this guy doing 10mph, okay!!)

 

[mySIck]

_______________________
Yo, SICKman! Evening, sir. You're pretty serious about this build aren't ya buddy? So good luck on this one... and thanks for the dyno homework earlier.

Didn't you say you were using the TSX top end on this build? Heard really good things about that approach. It may not be my style to go "all-out"... but hoping you have a good outcome without any repercussions.

So we'll see you on the Dragon, right? Maybe not this year but next for sure. (Oh, but watch out... and be careful about this guy doing 10mph, okay!!)

I have the K24Z3 from the 09-13 TSX that is basically the same motor as the Z7 just much cheaper. I thought about going with the K24A bottom and the K20C head but it is just way to expensive.

I have taken this build quite seriously now I have a lot of up coming plans. I am still hoping I can make it this year but at the moment I might not be able to make it but of not definitely next year.

 

[sunofwolf]

I think a little Hondata work could make a car a bit better and not be wearing out stuff faster. I don't want to waste a lot of dough on nothing. My only additions have been to add a escort redline, some HP summer tires the Firehawk 500 and now I need to do some tuning.

 

[mySIck]

I think a little Hondata work could make a car a bit better and not be wearing out stuff faster. I don't want to waste a lot of dough on nothing. My only additions have been to add a escort redline, some HP summer tires the Firehawk 500 and now I need to do some tuning.

You are going to like Hondata if you know what you are doing. It will really bring your car to life.

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

I think a little Hondata work could make a car a bit better and not be wearing out stuff faster. I don't want to waste a lot of dough on nothing. My only additions have been to add a escort redline, some HP summer tires the Firehawk 500 and now I need to do some tuning.

_________________
I have the 9th gen, year 2012.... much like your 2013.

Overall, I am very happy with the stock engine/performance EXCEPT for the rev hang... drove me crazy. Did a simple reflash to get rid of it. Of course that opened the door to further tuning, but those were just tweaks. I ended up with a Full Race DP and quiet Invidia exhaust... picked up power on the high end but it wasn't really necessary. In fact, I lost some on the low end and needed to add CAI to get it back. My tuner -- Steve -- is a college professor up in Manitoba who actually teaches automotive. Brilliant guy, highly recommended. http://e-tunez.com

In the end tuning was a lot of fun but unnecessary to enjoy the car. My favorite tune was developing a special calibration for 100 octane (race) fuel. I love race gas... but who can afford $9.00/gallon?

Anyway, the only way to go from stock 200hp to 250+ or even 300 is to get serious like @mySIck. The K24Z7 engine is fully capable of 300+ hp with forced induction. Or, a more moderate approach is to use larger RDX injectors (about $225) and E85. That's an extra 25hp right there, a difference you'll feel. And you won't be spending $5,000 either.
Extreme engine mods also take a huge amount of time... time to study, plan, decide on parts, and which approach every step of the way. Lots of brainpower needed. And $$$.

Again, most will be very happy with the stock 200hp if they can live with the rev hang, which is the computer holding revs high even when you've taken your foot off the gas. Not sure about the '13. Does the '13 have rev hang?

So that's the engine part. Let's move to handling where my interest is.

The best things you can do for your car, in order....

1) Tires. Tires. Tires. Don't scrimp. Bridgestone 71R and Michelin Pilot Super Sports are among the best. I prefer the later... on my third set; 30,000 warranty, can't beat it.
2) Rear anti-sway bar. The stock RSB is a joke. Go with a 22mm Progress. $200. You won't believe the difference. Was the single best thing I ever did.
3) If the budget is there, consider upgrading the suspension to the Honda HFP ($650) Stiffer springs, about a 1" drop. Very moderate mod but like driving on rails.
4) Optional -- add 1 - 1.5 degrees of negative camber to the rear. You'll need DYI adjustable camber arms ($100) and a shop to do the alignment afterwards. Although such a small amount of negative camber isn't hard on the tires, this is a more extreme modification for a guy like you. But if you do #1 and #2 above you'll be hooked. Then, when your stock struts wear out you can upgrade to an HFP kit or another type of high performance suspension... up to you. Point is, if you like to have total control of your car... you need upgrades #1 - #3.

In the end I'm not a speed guy. The stock engine can already do 136... and about 144 with minor mods. But where? And who has the huevos for that anyway, outside of a track? Whenever I get much over 120, I need to come right back down. Although... there was a time when Montana didn't have a speed limit. I drove through the entire state and into Idaho (1100 miles) in 10 hours. That's an AVERAGE of 110... and that was in a 1991 Honda Accord! Talk about fun. So if an Accord can do that I'd say the Si can probably sit at 120-125 all day, with spurts up to 140.

These days I can still have a blast just doing 60 - 70 through twisties. That's my game, as long as i can do it with complete control. As long as the tires never squeal.

Whether you just want extreme control or like to toss the car around (like I do) tires and suspension are a must.

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

You are going to like Hondata if you know what you are doing. It will really bring your car to life.

________________
Agreed... a tune isn't that serious anyway. As they come off the assembly line each engine has minute differences, and the tune helps even those out. My car definitely runs smoother than before, with power in all the right places. (I like the extra power at 3,000 - 4,000 rpm as i'm digging out of an apex... others like it up high)

There's better VTEC crossover as well. So there are a lot of advantages to a tune. (Heck, the only downside is buying the damn FP!)

I know many use Viper. I did too, at first. He's about the only guy you ever hear about. But after awhile I really preferred Steve at E-Tunez. As I said, brilliant guy who provides extreme customer service. You can even learn to do it yourself... Steve teaches a tuning class every June/July when he's off school during the summer. Can't recommend anybody more highly.

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

The Racing Line. Wish I had discovered this guy years ago:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrTcMikumVc

 

[sunofwolf]

so it looks like a sway bar is needed, I have firehawks 500 which is like a cheaper Michelin sport tire. And I just got a hondata tuner here unlocked for $250-i wouldn't pay $690+ shipping for a new one. The 2013 does have rev hang. The roads are really bad up here so dropping the car wouldn't work too well. Perhaps a little bit of shifter work.

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

A must see:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HwnJ1VkWA4

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

so it looks like a sway bar is needed, I have firehawks 500 which is like a cheaper Michelin sport tire. And I just got a hondata tuner here unlocked for $250-i wouldn't pay $690+ shipping for a new one. The 2013 does have rev hang. The roads are really bad up here so dropping the car wouldn't work too well. Perhaps a little bit of shifter work.

__________________
Yes... consider the RSB. If you want handling that's the ticket. However. I understand Honda did upgrade the RSB (for '13, 14, etc) after customers complained about the lack of handling in the 2012. But it was a very minor upgrade... so check it out first. A 22mm is more serious, definitely. A 24mm is considered race-level... so a 22mm is right below that. I even went with the heavy duty Moog end links to upgrade the RSB support. But that's just because i'm a maniac.

Given your bad roads you may not like a firmer suspension. I don't think a 1" (max) drop is that much actually...but YMMV. The HFP might even be 3/4". It's conservative as you would expect from Honda. Meaning this ... the HFP suspension is not radical like so many others are. And yet it gets rave reviews for comfort and performance. I absolutely love it.

Hey, congrats on the FP ... what a deal! (Let me know when you want to sell it!)

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

You'll want to research the Pilot Super Sports (PSS for short) before you buy another set of tires. The PSS have been discontinued and are now the Sport 4's. Expensive at the moment but they should come down by the time you need them.

So read up on the PSS. TireRack.com and all that. Read the reviews.

 

[sunofwolf]

The Racing Line. Wish I had discovered this guy years ago:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrTcMikumVc

Big Balls is all that is needed to pass

 

[sunofwolf]

You'll want to research the Pilot Super Sports (PSS for short) before you buy another set of tires. The PSS have been discontinued and are now the Sport 4's. Expensive at the moment but they should come down by the time you need them.

So read up on the PSS. TireRack.com and all that. Read the reviews.

$192 +tax and shipping for Michelins sport. The firehawks came in at 1# $113+ tax and shipping on reviews in summer High performance, I like the some of the other tires too. From the looks of the firehawks-they look and feel very sticky indeed and a soft ride too. I had a set PSS on the srt-4 and they were very excellent but I wear them out. I don't think the number 1 tire is req, just a good sticky tire. I Honda si 2014 has a 20 sway bar. The 2013 has a 18 sway bar. The only thing though, Loose is faster on bad roads- a 22mm sway bar might be perfect. I don't want to change too much because the car is in mint condition and I might as well wear out some parts before I replace them. One thing you need is a great radar detector and my escort redline is installed and working in the Honda si now.

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

$192 +tax and shipping for Michelins sport. The firehawks came in at 1# $113+ tax and shipping on reviews in summer High performance, I like the some of the other tires too. From the looks of the firehawks-they look and feel very sticky indeed and a soft ride too. I had a set PSS on the srt-4 and they were very excellent but I wear them out. I don't think the number 1 tire is req, just a good sticky tire. I Honda si 2014 has a 20 sway bar. The 2013 has a 18 sway bar. The only thing though, Loose is faster on bad roads- a 22mm sway bar might be perfect. I don't want to change too much because the car is in mint condition and I might as well wear out some parts before I replace them. One thing you need is a great radar detector and my escort redline is installed and working in the Honda si now.

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I probably wouldn't bother with the RSB then. You're fine. In fact, the stiffer the RSB the better your tires need to be. A softer sway bar will allow more lean, and therefore more pressure on the front tires as they dig in, which is good to a point.

Very surprised to hear about the Firehawks. Will look into them. On the PSS... I get about 22,000 from them... Costco then gives me $100 credit (due to warranty) towards the second set... like getting one tire free. Bought my last set of PSS from Tire Rack, however. $125 each for the 18". Sweet deal. The Sport 4's (replacing the PSS) should come down in price. Problem is, the PSS had such a killer reputation...everybody "just had to have them". I'm tempted by the Bridgestone 71R... probably the stickiest tire out there. But my Michelin's are so incredible in the rain, and I know the 71's are not. That's a big deal to me.

Over the years (ahem... decades) i've purchased a great many tires. The great thing about Michelin is that they continue to perform at their original high level until the bitter end. Every other tire brand (for me) has sucked after 10,000 to 15,000. Hope it's different for the Firehawks.

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

Big Balls is all that is needed to pass

______________
So you watched it!

But wait a second... what happened to the guy on the Dragon doing 10mph?

 

[mySIck]

_________________
I have the 9th gen, year 2012.... much like your 2013.

Overall, I am very happy with the stock engine/performance EXCEPT for the rev hang... drove me crazy. Did a simple reflash to get rid of it. Of course that opened the door to further tuning, but those were just tweaks. I ended up with a Full Race DP and quiet Invidia exhaust... picked up power on the high end but it wasn't really necessary. In fact, I lost some on the low end and needed to add CAI to get it back. My tuner -- Steve -- is a college professor up in Manitoba who actually teaches automotive. Brilliant guy, highly recommended. http://e-tunez.com

In the end tuning was a lot of fun but unnecessary to enjoy the car. My favorite tune was developing a special calibration for 100 octane (race) fuel. I love race gas... but who can afford $9.00/gallon?

Anyway, the only way to go from stock 200hp to 250+ or even 300 is to get serious like @mySIck. The K24Z7 engine is fully capable of 300+ hp with forced induction. Or, a more moderate approach is to use larger RDX injectors (about $225) and E85. That's an extra 25hp right there, a difference you'll feel. And you won't be spending $5,000 either.
Extreme engine mods also take a huge amount of time... time to study, plan, decide on parts, and which approach every step of the way. Lots of brainpower needed. And $$$.

Again, most will be very happy with the stock 200hp if they can live with the rev hang, which is the computer holding revs high even when you've taken your foot off the gas. Not sure about the '13. Does the '13 have rev hang?

So that's the engine part. Let's move to handling where my interest is.

The best things you can do for your car, in order....

1) Tires. Tires. Tires. Don't scrimp. Bridgestone 71R and Michelin Pilot Super Sports are among the best. I prefer the later... on my third set; 30,000 warranty, can't beat it.
2) Rear anti-sway bar. The stock RSB is a joke. Go with a 22mm Progress. $200. You won't believe the difference. Was the single best thing I ever did.
3) If the budget is there, consider upgrading the suspension to the Honda HFP ($650) Stiffer springs, about a 1" drop. Very moderate mod but like driving on rails.
4) Optional -- add 1 - 1.5 degrees of negative camber to the rear. You'll need DYI adjustable camber arms ($100) and a shop to do the alignment afterwards. Although such a small amount of negative camber isn't hard on the tires, this is a more extreme modification for a guy like you. But if you do #1 and #2 above you'll be hooked. Then, when your stock struts wear out you can upgrade to an HFP kit or another type of high performance suspension... up to you. Point is, if you like to have total control of your car... you need upgrades #1 - #3.

In the end I'm not a speed guy. The stock engine can already do 136... and about 144 with minor mods. But where? And who has the huevos for that anyway, outside of a track? Whenever I get much over 120, I need to come right back down. Although... there was a time when Montana didn't have a speed limit. I drove through the entire state and into Idaho (1100 miles) in 10 hours. That's an AVERAGE of 110... and that was in a 1991 Honda Accord! Talk about fun. So if an Accord can do that I'd say the Si can probably sit at 120-125 all day, with spurts up to 140.

These days I can still have a blast just doing 60 - 70 through twisties. That's my game, as long as i can do it with complete control. As long as the tires never squeal.

Whether you just want extreme control or like to toss the car around (like I do) tires and suspension are a must.

Here is an old dyno sheet that I made 202 WHP at 6,800ish rpm and let out before the 7,500 so i was probably around 205+.

At that time I only had the Full-Race catless downpipe, Skunk2 3.5" CAI and P2R throttle body spacer tuning done by Vit. And I really loved that set up. It was easy to do, good bottom end torque and even being catless paired with the stock exhaust it was quiet(except cold start for a few seconds it is loud but not in a bad ricer way). Not long after that I made moves to go turbocharged instead of supercharged and got the RBC intake manifold swap kit and put in DW1000CC injectors and got turned with Derrick Robinson another awesome tuner out there. And I could instantly tell I lost some torque at low to mid range I had to rev a little high to move into highway traffic but up top around 6000 rpm it really came alive and pulled harder. The VTEC transition was noticeable when you hit 5,600 RPMs(nothing like the K20Z3, B16 or B18C).

@sunofwolf I have some D2 RS coilovers they are on the cheap but good quality end. They are fully adjustable so you can leave the car at around factory ride height and adjust how hard or soft you want them to be. I have not done it yet like @Bruce Bartlow mentioned adding in the anti sway bar and adjustable control arms.

I really liked the Bridgestone Potenza So4 I had but are low tread and expensive I can say on a hard rain these tires did phenomenal but tomorrow I have an appointment to get some Firestone Firehawk Indy 500s put on so I am excited to try them out hopefully they can hold 1st or 2nd gear boost when at WOT.

 

[sunofwolf]

View attachment 59081

Here is an old dyno sheet that I made 202 WHP at 6,800ish rpm and let out before the 7,500 so i was probably around 205+.

At that time I only had the Full-Race catless downpipe, Skunk2 3.5" CAI and P2R throttle body spacer tuning done by Vit. And I really loved that set up. It was easy to do, good bottom end torque and even being catless paired with the stock exhaust it was quiet(except cold start for a few seconds it is loud but not in a bad ricer way). Not long after that I made moves to go turbocharged instead of supercharged and got the RBC intake manifold swap kit and put in DW1000CC injectors and got turned with Derrick Robinson another awesome tuner out there. And I could instantly tell I lost some torque at low to mid range I had to rev a little high to move into highway traffic but up top around 6000 rpm it really came alive and pulled harder. The VTEC transition was noticeable when you hit 5,600 RPMs(nothing like the K20Z3, B16 or B18C).

@sunofwolf I have some D2 RS coilovers they are on the cheap but good quality end. They are fully adjustable so you can leave the car at around factory ride height and adjust how hard or soft you want them to be. I have not done it yet like @Bruce Bartlow mentioned adding in the anti sway bar and adjustable control arms.

I really liked the Bridgestone Potenza So4 I had but are low tread and expensive I can say on a hard rain these tires did phenomenal but tomorrow I have an appointment to get some Firestone Firehawk Indy 500s put on so I am excited to try them out hopefully they can hold 1st or 2nd gear boost when at WOT.

And to think the srt-4 does over 160+ in 100% stock form. I do think the Honda r model is any faster , in fact I know it isn't. Its got .4 l more engine and is not set up to monitor gas but use gas instead as in 30 min the whole 12.5 gals tank is gone at 6,000 rpm at 6500 rpm even less time to empty. 15 years old and still unbeaten LOL!

 

[squiggy]

And to think the srt-4 does over 160+ in 100% stock form. I do think the Honda r model is any faster , in fact I know it isn't. Its got .4 l more engine and is not set up to monitor gas but use gas instead as in 30 min the whole 12.5 gals tank is gone at 6,000 rpm at 6500 rpm even less time to empty. 15 years old and still unbeaten LOL!

2017 Honda Civic Type-R
0-60 time - 4.9s
Top Speed - 169 mph

2004 Dodge Neon SRT-4
0-60 time - 5.3s
Top speed - 153mph

 

[mySIck]

And to think the srt-4 does over 160+ in 100% stock form. I do think the Honda r model is any faster , in fact I know it isn't. Its got .4 l more engine and is not set up to monitor gas but use gas instead as in 30 min the whole 12.5 gals tank is gone at 6,000 rpm at 6500 rpm even less time to empty. 15 years old and still unbeaten LOL!

Idk about that!! they have a 4 cylinder shoot out where the DC2 ITR and EK9 Destroyed the competition. The USDM CTR is much faster than the SRT4.