'13 Civic Si BBK advice

PainlessCandy

PainlessCandy

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Cleveland
Vehicle Model
Civic Si
Body Style
Coupe
I've been doing research on a Big Brake Kit for my Si, and I don't see a lot of options when I look at other builds; it seems to be limited to:
Wilwood, which is made for our cars and integrates the e-brake into the rear calipers which is a big plus, but I've heard are overly noisy. (Their nickel-coated calipers are beautiful, if I could get them to do that coating for me).
Brembo, which is kind-of DIY, it takes some finessing of mount points and different size rotors to make it work, with worries about rim clearance, but has equal options to Wilwood and a better pedigree.
[Edit] Of course, I forgot Buddy Club, but I don't seem to find any preference or stopping-power-data to support them either way. They almost seem to be the American knockoff of Brembo, highly effective but not head-turning.

I have seen a few other companies offering brake systems to our close competitors on the street, like the BRZ/FRS and the WRX, such as AP Racing. Their systems look phenomenal and more functional than the slimmer rotors everyone else runs. Does anyone have any experience with them, be it on a Honda or otherwise? From perusing their site, it looks like they make options that would fit our 9th gens.

Ideally, I want to increase braking power to the point that I need bigger tires up front, which would require nothing less than 6-pots up front and 4-pots in the rear. I am looking for any suggestions, and am inspired by users such as @Sleepingpanda , both in size and style.
 
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Once again, anyone else's build you have seen that includes crazy brake upgrades, I am more than happy to hear about.

I need to do more research with Buddy Club and see how they compare, but my initial impression is that their caliper quality is not as good as Brembo or Wilwood's 6-pot forged caliper.

I am not looking for drilled rotors, as they can possibly be compromised due to the manufacturing process required, only slotted. Does anyone with Wilwood experience know the sound difference between the rotor types? I would imagine that the drilled and slotted rotors they sell most often would be the loudest.

I would be willing to put up with increased brake noise as long as it wasn't offensive (like squealing/screaming every time you touched the brakes); Hell, I already put up with my exhaust - which I love but is very loud, no matter how you listen to it or apply the throttle on a hill.
 
@jrotax101 probably has more race/track experience than anyone on here by a long shot. He may have some input on big brake setups. I know he's posted quite a bit about various brands of brake pads/track pads etc.
 
Thank you again! I will hit him up for sure.

It seems like the biggest opposition we have is the fitment of the calipers to our stock brake mounts, second biggest being wheel size (none of us can fit 16" rotors that all those Corvette's use). Does anyone have stock fitment specifications handy for our calipers, or what we can modify those mounts to? I watched several videos where they mounted a new bracket on the stock mounts that fit the new caliper from several different companies. I would imagine, with the right geometry, that I could fit any brakes I wanted if I had the adjusting bracket custom made to my car. I'm sure this wouldn't be cheap, but it is an option with the finishing touches I intend to put on my 9th gen coupe (several years from now)!
 
Are you tracking your car or is this strictly a cosmetic upgrade?

What tires are you running currently? Your tires will be the limit of the brake force that you can use before you lock up the wheel. BBKs do not contribute to brake force. They only help shed heat better so if you are not overheating your current brake setup then the BBK will be for looks only. The brake force is determined by the amount of friction generated between the rotor and the pad. A more aggressive pad will give you more brake force but only up until that point that the ABS kicks on.

You should be able to activate the ABS system, which is the friction and grip limit of your tires, with the stock caliper. The only issue you can run into with the stock system is heat on extended runs and track days. For most people a simple pad and fluid upgrade is enough.

The AP brake setups, especially the popular Sprint calipers on the BRZ/FRS, are upgrades done by people who run out of pedal and brake due to heat. They aren't generally buying the Sprint calipers for looks. Its a great caliper that can handle and dissipate heat much better than the stock equipment and also is small enough to fit under the stock wheel.

Just need a little more information to help point you in the right direction. If its just for looks then the Buddy Club calipers seem to be the best deal in terms of price.

You will not need those massive 16" 'Vette calipers on your car. EVER.

As for why Porsche/Ferrari/Corvette/etc. all have slotted or drilled rotors, it's because the cars weigh more than your civic does, and they're traveling much faster than your civic. If you look at braking, all you're doing is removing kinetic energy from the vehicle: Kinetic Energy (KE)= (1/2) x (mass) x (velocity squared). Because the velocity is squared, a marginally faster car has a lot more kinetic energy. A much faster car has a literal sh*tload more kinetic energy than your Civic would. In order to remove all that energy, they need to use unique designs and materials that aren't necessary on a regular car.

Its just plain physics.
 
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This is my brembo blank with TSX calipers and upgraded pads/fluid setup. I was melting caliper seals/boots and had pushed the piston through the backing plate on the previous pads with the stock system. I had a lot of heat to deal with but I could still activate the ABS system. Unless you are destroying parts from heat or losing your brake pedal a pad and fluid upgrade is generally enough.

Im only running a 225/45 tire. They were Bridgestone RE-11As and will be replaced with the new 71-Rs this spring.

qqnvio.jpg
 
6 piston isn't a necessity. You can run a 1 or 2 piston caliper with 315 tires if necessary.
Wilwood superlite calipers are good. Dynalite not so much.
AP Racing make excellent products.

Every manufacturer will have multiple tiers of caliper ranging from $10000 race calipers to $300 street calipers. (if they don't, then most likely it's intended for a car show) The most important aspect is having an appropriate brake pad compound selected for the intended purpose, and quality of the rotors as well as fluid.

Re: noise - this will come primarily from the pad type and compound. Slotted rotors may be marginally louder than blanks but nothing you can hear as a human behind the wheel holding all other variables constant.
Also, not answering any specific question but drilled rotors are for posers.
 
Nix said:
Are you tracking your car or is this strictly a cosmetic upgrade?

What tires are you running currently?...

Its just plain physics.
Click to expand...

I am tracking my car. While the cosmetic value is there, it is far outweighed by functionality for my build. My current (summer) tires are Michelin Pilot Super Sports in 225/40/18 and quite frankly I cannot get them to let go, no matter what I do (short of purposefully trying to wreck my car, that is). I have only ever had ABS come on when braking hard under wet or icy conditions; on a dry summer road they won't lock up. I do have issues with heat build up. It was first noticeable when I took a trip into the Appalachian mountains with a friend to do some repelling when I first bought the car; with all the hills, small back roads, and my car loaded with a large amount of heavy rope, my brakes were fading quick and I could smell burning by the time we reached our destination.

I went to school to be an engineer, so I am quite understanding of the physics involved and what different upgrades are actually doing other than looking good. While the difference is not substantial, I am looking for the most effective brakes, and larger calipers require larger pads and usually larger rotors which offers more available braking surface and thus more braking power. Increased number of pistons also increases the surface area to which clamping force may be applied and thus allows for a more even application of the pad and more possible braking power, especially when the pad is hot. My car is also a daily-driver, so pad application has to be balanced; upgrading to calipers that allow for quick swapping pads would be a great advantage for me.
Are any of the kits out there not compatible with ABS? I don't see anyone talking about it; it seems to be more about e-brake issues and fitment as far as compatibility goes. Also, I don't see many people talking about upgrading cylinders; Are our stock cylinders more than adequate, and would installing a larger cylinder increase available braking power/clamping force?


jrotax101 said:
Re: noise - this will come primarily from the pad type and compound. Slotted rotors may be marginally louder than blanks but nothing you can hear as a human behind the wheel holding all other variables constant.
Also, not answering any specific question but drilled rotors are for posers.
Click to expand...

I am looking at slotted rotors, drilled rotors are silly and I don't see why anyone would use them other than for looks. The thought of physically drilling through a heat treated metal that needs to stand up to multiple extreme heat cycles makes me cringe at the molecular level. I also am favoring two-piece rotors due to the weight reduction - the kind that is popular with Wilwood and AP Racing kits.


Nix said:
This is my brembo blank with TSX calipers and upgraded pads/fluid setup. I was melting caliper seals/boots and had pushed the piston through the backing plate on the previous pads with the stock system. I had a lot of heat to deal with but I could still activate the ABS system. Unless you are destroying parts from heat or losing your brake pedal a pad and fluid upgrade is generally enough.

Im only running a 225/45 tire. They were Bridgestone RE-11As and will be replaced with the new 71-Rs this spring.

qqnvio.jpg
Click to expand...

I have those exact same Konig rims on my winter setup, I love them.

I read that our cars can only accept Dot-2 or 3 fluid, is this the case?
 
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Sounds like you are actually driving your car! Which is awesome! You can definitely overwhelm the stock pads on some mountain roads.

I would recommend starting with a pad/fluid upgrade. Very cost effective. The calipers on your car are a pretty decent size as are the rotors compared to the previous gen civic. They can withstand some pretty serious heat. The stock pads are the weak point.

Hawk make some pads that fit your car. I believe @Nomar06 picked up a set as he was blowing through the stock pads pretty quickly. I think @Kevv_Si also upgraded his pads pretty significantly.

For fluid the Motul RBF series is fantastic. However, a lot of those high performance high temp fluids are race fluids and need to be changed out more often. If you're comfortable bleeding your brakes and changing fluid at least once a year you can definitely look into those.

If you need something that lasts a little longer but is a good upgrade from stock I like to recommend the ATE Type200 fluid. You can get it through tirerack fairly cheap. It's definitely better than the stock fluid but lasts longer than the race fluids. Its a middle of the road compromise. I've had no issues with it.


I have only seen 2 big brake kits made specifically for this car. Stoptech and Wilwood. Stoptech make a great 4 piston front kit but its crazy expensive. ($2k) The rears hardly do any braking so a simple pad upgrade on that end should be all you need. You could certainly adapt an older brembo caliper off the TL-S, which I think it what panda did on his car. I know on the older 8th gen you have to drill out the knuckle mounting point to be able to run them and there are some issues with the bleeder being in the right orientation. Just something to think about. Bolt on kits are nice. Permanent modifications to the knuckle can get expensive down the road if you want to go back.

I would not worry about the master cylinder. It should be able to handle any of those kits just fine.

Hope that helps.
 
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Nix said:
Stoptech make a great 4 piston front kit but its crazy expensive. ($2k) The rears hardly do any braking so a simple pad upgrade on that end should be all you need...

I would not worry about the master cylinder. It should be able to handle any of those kits just fine.
Click to expand...

It helps quite a bit. Thank you for your thorough answer! I am trying to avoid Stoptech because their calipers aren't as pretty as the competition and their prices are so high, even though they don't get stellar reviews; I could almost buy ceramic rotors at that price, lol.

Do the higher end racing quality brake fluids list their fluid life on the bottle? I would not be opposed to changing fluid more frequently, especially during the summer when I am seeing track time.

Stepping back for a second, I am still curious about stopping power. Clearly the front brakes do most of the work since that is where most of the weight is located and that is where the weight shifts to while braking. Does anyone know what our stock brake system is ratio'd to? And can we get more braking power than stock out of the back in a straight line or from the front by changing ratios without compromising safety?

You also mentioned other cars needing to apply much more braking power to stop them due to their weight and high speed - I often hit 100+mph and our cars are not really that light at just shy of 3,000 lbs, especially compared to some of our hatchback cousins and racing counterparts like Lotus' Exige and Alfa's 4C. I would argue I need as much braking power as possible, and would appreciate having to learn not to lock up bigger brakes which would then make me look for bigger/wider tires. That being said, I want to make sure I keep a similar front-to-back brake ratio so that I do not make the car unsafe when I instinctively slam on the brakes to avoid an accident.

Also, the ABS question still stands out in my mind. In this day and age I would imagine everything being manufactured is made to handle ABS systems aside from drag-only systems, but I want to be sure before buying a kit and then breaking it when ABS kicks in on a snowy day.

The two part rotor system is also in question. The weight reduction is great, but I wonder about all those bolts staying set when the rotor is going through heat cycles. Does anyone have any experience with, or recommendations against two-part rotors? It just seems like the way to go and I haven't seen any negative reviews of these sorts of rotors.

I'm also still curious about the cylinder: Hypothetically, would a larger cylinder provide more available braking force? I am not likely to mess with it, but if it makes a BBK more effective and is not a huge expense, why not?
 
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None of this is to say I dislike the stock brakes on the 9th gen Si. I actually love them, they are very effective. Right after I bought this car, I was coming around a curve on the highway just outside of downtown Cleveland and had moved into the exit lane in a very complex interchange (the same place a bus had gone off a bridge and plummeted some 100ft to the lowest road below killing almost everyone on board a few years ago - you might have seen it on the news) going 10 over and a pickup truck decided to merge to get off at the last second while going 35-40mph. I had to instinctively slam on my brakes for the first time in this car, and was surprised that I scrubbed all my speed so fast. All I could think about after the adrenaline rush left was that if I had been in the same situation in the 2004 Ford Taurus that I traded in a couple weeks prior, I would have rear-ended that truck and then who knows what would have happened.

This is also part of the driving force behind me wanting to improve my brakes to be as effective as possible with only marginal price restrictions. The way I see it, I'm going to spend a bunch of money putting a super charger on this car, and I'm not going to sell it for a very, very long time, so avoiding any accidents is paramount and the best way to do this to have the most effective brakes possible, paired with the greatest amount of traction possible. This is my goal, and I appreciate everyone here who is helping me to seek it.
 
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Allright lets see....

1)Do the higher end racing quality brake fluids list their fluid life on the bottle? I would not be opposed to changing fluid more frequently, especially during the summer when I am seeing track time.

They do not list their life as there really isn't one. The high performance brake fluids simply absorb moisture more readily and become less effective. All brake fluid is hygroscopic to some degree. The stock stuff too. People can end up with a spongy brake pedal from old fluid that has absorbed a lot of water but most people don't notice anyway. So with race fluids they just need to be swapped more often. If you're doing track days and bleeding fluid after each event then I would not worry about it. Most of the high end stuff like the Motul RBF 600 should be changed once a year at least. The ATE stuff I like to mention needs to be changed every 2-3 years or so.

It just depends on how comfortable you are with maintenance and how much you want to do. Look into speed bleeders. They are spring loaded bleeder valves so you can do the job by yourself. Crack em' open, pump the pedal, crank em' shut. Unless you have a fancy vacuum bleeder.


2) Does anyone know what our stock brake system is ratio'd to? And can we get more braking power than stock out of the back in a straight line or from the front by changing ratios without compromising safety?


No idea on the ratio. There is a proportioning valve on the car that helps measure how much brake force to send to the front or rear of the car. It's one reason that a bolt on kit made for your car is great. They have usually taken this into consideration. Bolting up the calipers from a completely different car, ex: TL-S Brembos, can throw that balance off. Would you be able to feel it? I doubt it. Brake "power" is simply a matter of how aggressive the pad material is. More aggy pad = more bite but also more noise and wear. If you wanted more rear brake force you could simply put super aggressive pads in the rear. I don't know that the car wouldn't just back off the fluid through the proportioning valve though. I also have not seen anyone experiment with that valve so I have no info on it other than "it exists and does this."

There are manual proportioning valves available but I really don't think thats an area you need to worry about yet. I swapped from a very small caliper/piston to a much larger caliper/piston and did not change a thing. Stock MC and all. Everything works fine and feels normal.


3) You also mentioned other cars needing to apply much more braking power to stop them due to their weight and high speed - I often hit 100+mph and our cars are not really that light at just shy of 3,000 lbs, especially compared to some of our hatchback cousins and racing counterparts like Lotus' Exige and Alfa's 4C. I would argue I need as much braking power as possible, and would appreciate having to learn not to lock up bigger brakes which would then make me look for bigger/wider tires.


The formula for kinetic energy thats important when talking about brakes has the velocity squared. So a car of equal weight going only a couple miles an hour faster has significantly more energy. The weight does not factor nearly as much as the speed. The Exige and Alfa are going to be a lot faster than your Civic. Not that your car isn't great and can't be equally as fast but there is a lot of ground to make up. I do love seeing videos of Civics eating "better" cars alive on track days. So you can get there but don't worry about the weight and speed thing so much yet.


4) ABS - not controlled by the caliper. Nothing to worry about. The sensor is on the wheel and the computer, ABS module, controls how much fluid is going to that caliper and releases pressure accordingly. You can't override it unless you remove the sensors and stuff.


5) Two part rotors: You won't need them. Its a weight and heat thing. The bolts won't come loose although like most race parts you need to check your stuff more frequently. Its also much cheaper to replace the outer ring than a whole rotor but thats getting overkill on a Civic. Your money will be better spent elsewhere on the car. For example if you are really really going to be tracking your car hard and running super aggressive track pads I would highly recommend you look into a second set of pads/rotors. Swap the track rotors and pads on when you get there and put the street stuff back on when you leave. Its much better that way since track pads will eat rotors and you don't want to be putting yourself in a no brake situation on the street.

Lots of pads have an effective temp range. If you haven't driven a high temp pad before, when they are cold sometimes they have very very little stopping power. My old Axxis pads needed one good stop to heat up in the winter. You could really feel them ramp up if it was below freezing out. That first stop of the morning was a little sketchy. They also behave quite differently in the wet. So it depends on the pad of course but there are some gremlins hiding you may not have experienced before.


I am far from the authority on track days, pads, setups, and so on. I just read and tried to learn a ton before I did my brake upgrade. Mr Jrotax has more track time than anyone and I picked his brain quite a bit when choosing parts. He runs cheap Centric blank for his track day rotors since they get destroyed fairly regularly. He is a very very good driver and if its good enough for him I suspect its far more than any of us mortals need on our cars.


6) Wanting to improve my brakes to be as effective as possible with only marginal price restrictions. - The most important thing you've said!

I highly suggest you start with better pads, fluid, and a few handling/suspension mods before getting into a full on BBK system. The stock rotors should be plenty for now. I think you'll find the stock calipers with capable pads is quite good. Tires - The Michelin PSS is a great tire but there are better tires out there that can be driven on the street and tracked. I think you'll find that the ABS will start kicking on with those far before you overwhelm the stock brakes with heat once you hit the track. Pads & fluid. Do it. Its cost effective and it works.




I know thats a lot to read but hopefully it answers most of what you are looking for. There are much more grippy tires available than the Pilot Super Sport but if this is your DD you need to balance performance with safety and drivability. Take a look at the Bridgestone RE-71R. I DD'ed a set of the prior model RE-11A. They did quite well but got a little scary in wet conditions once they were worn. Also they did not like cold temps at all. Tires is a whole different discussion though.
 
Do some auto-x and track days. Find the limits of your stock equipment and go from there. It will make much more sense once you see where the weak points are on your car and in your driving. Take a couple lessons if you can. Most track days have beginner sessions with instructors. You may find that your brake points are bad or you aren't pushing the pedal hard enough when you need to. That sort of thing.
 
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