Driving With Traction Control Off

Bulkybear said:
I don't get what this talk of hesitation is. At least with the Si. I've tested it both ways. With TC on ripping first it engaged but I was still accelerating hard. With it off I spun tires all the way through first and it was pulling hard, but total acceleration was SLOWER than having TC keeping the wheels from spinning to far out.
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Here are my 2 cents:

If you try to launch the car and feel the grip and modulate the gas TC will kick in prematurely cut the gas a bit and then go back. With TC on foot all the way down works, but a faster launch is achieved with TC off and and listening to your tires. The idea is to accelerate close to the tire loosing grip but not more than that. The grip loose point varies with tire, temperature and of course RPM in relation to speed of the car.

I drove many cars that did not have TC so I guess if you try and drive it like that TC is more likely to mess up your launches.

A very fast launch is achieved arround 3.5 to 4k RPM and proper modulation of the throttle in my experience on this car. If TC kicks in or tires spin you loose speed.
 
Under "normal driving" , it will hesitate with the TC on pulling out in traffic while trying to be smooth from a stop.

If driving with the TC on, starting may, or may not hesitate from a stop, if I were to push the pedal to the floor, but that's not what "I" call normal driving.

Where as with the TC off it doesn't hesitate, and I can operate the throttle normally without any undo lurches, or wheel spin.
 
Monk said:
Under "normal driving" , it will hesitate with the TC on pulling out in traffic while trying to be smooth from a stop.

If driving with the TC on, starting may, or may not hesitate from a stop, if I were to push the pedal to the floor, but that's not what "I" call normal driving.

Where as with the TC off it doesn't hesitate, and I can operate the throttle normally without any undo lurches, or wheel spin.
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Are you driving a manual or auto? I would have expected the 1.8 to have less jitter with TC on. For auto any car TC or not I find that sudden accelerations always have a 1 second hesitation, at least for the few autos I drove.

And you're right taking off with the foot down is not normal, it is just wasting rubber and speed.

I would say that ideealy wheels should always be at the brink of spinning while accelerating, and at the brink of locking while braking, and at least for braking this is more of a track mode, real streets I would not do it. I sometimes give in and enjoy a fast launch, but I am always conservative and prudent on braking while on public roads or not empty roads.
 
KennyGS said:
I think most automobile manufacturers admit their TC systems can be bested by a capable driver and turned off.
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I think TC and SC are meant for people that are not intentionally taking the car to the limit. So if a casual driver crosser the safe limit TC/SC kicks in and helps what a a to b driver maybe will not be able or prepared to correct properly, but if you want a more spirited driving experience it is better to turn it off or down a notch for some stronger cars that have the ability to do so.
It is great that we have a TC off, some older models did not have that, older Mazda 3s for example.
 
Kenny'S said:
I think most automobile manufacturers admit their TC systems can be bested by a capable driver and turned off.
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:1: I agree, this is my 1st car with TC , and all the cars I've had since I started driving in '62 have not been any problem controlling them, including my 5.0 L Mustang King Cobra, it's all about being smooth.

I don't have TC on my mc's and I haven't had any problems controlling it either, and I can say it will out excellerate pretty much any car under $50,000. :thumbsup:
 
Dragos said:
Are you driving a manual or auto?
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This is my 1st automatic, and it's a 1.8, so I don't know how a ST 1.8 works from a stop with the TC on, or off. I'm just trying to learn what I need to do with my car.
As it stands for now driving in town in stop/start situations I don't use econ, but do keep the TC on. When I need to pull into traffic where I'll need a positive acceleration I'll turn the TC off before pulling out. Also I find driving around in parking lot situations it works better with the TC off.

So any of you peeps with a 1.8 auto' , please chime in on your does,and don'ts. I'd also like to hear what 1.8 ST do/don't with the TC on/off ?
 
Monk said:
This is my 1st automatic, and it's a 1.8, so I don't know how a ST 1.8 works from a stop with the TC on, or off. I'm just trying to learn what I need to do with my car.
As it stands for now driving in town in stop/start situations I don't use econ, but do keep the TC on. When I need to pull into traffic where I'll need a positive acceleration I'll turn the TC off before pulling out. Also I find driving around in parking lot situations it works better with the TC off.

So any of you peeps with a 1.8 auto' , please chime in on your does,and don'ts. I'd also like to hear what 1.8 ST do/don't with the TC on/off ?
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Comparing with my manual Mazda 3 2.0 which also has TC I find the hesitation kicks in if you really push it very hard with TC on, either wise not very present. I am leaning towards the hesitation coming from the automatic gearbox as well. It is one of my biggest issues with the autos in general.

I am also very curious what other auto and manual 1.8 owners experience.
 
Yeah you guys are right about the throttle control getting a better launch with traction control off. Most of us here are experienced and/or enthusiast. I was looking at it from the common persons perspective as in your trying to turn in a drive through a gap in traffic. Most people just floor it. But for the record my best launches have been flooring it in first and using TC. Now when I'm actually trying to race I will turn TC off. While it doesn't slow me down in first it kicks in a bogs really bad on the 1st-2nd shift. If it weren't for that I would leave TC on. And then I have to look at it as I may be used to a little hesitation. My old charger had drive by wire lag. Just a little. But my company vehicle has a cvt transmission. TONS of hesitation. So bad that you don't even attempt cutting through traffic from a stop or slow speeds.
 
Monk said:
This is my 1st automatic, and it's a 1.8, so I don't know how a ST 1.8 works from a stop with the TC on, or off. I'm just trying to learn what I need to do with my car.
As it stands for now driving in town in stop/start situations I don't use econ, but do keep the TC on. When I need to pull into traffic where I'll need a positive acceleration I'll turn the TC off before pulling out. Also I find driving around in parking lot situations it works better with the TC off.

So any of you peeps with a 1.8 auto' , please chime in on your does,and don'ts. I'd also like to hear what 1.8 ST do/don't with the TC on/off ?
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Wait a sec. What are you doing in parking lots that even engages the TC?
 
Bulkybear said:
Wait a sec. What are you doing in parking lots that even engages the TC?
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It 's not that the TC has to be doing something as much as the TC controls the smoothness of the gas application even at idle, or close to it. It seems that when I'm idling though there's a hesitation if I just barely use the gas, but when it's off it's smooth.? (I think they've still got a ways to go with all this AI stuff, never had this with a simple FI, without the econ, and TC). It's like a dead spot from idle to go. But, when driving normally it's smooth no matter what I'm using(econ,TC). Also it has been mentioned a couple of times that an automatic has a hesitation as well, and since I'm new to AM's it's a learning experience.
 
Monk said:
It 's not that the TC has to be doing something as much as the TC controls the smoothness of the gas application even at idle, or close to it. It seems that when I'm idling though there's a hesitation if I just barely use the gas, but when it's off it's smooth.? (I think they've still got a ways to go with all this AI stuff, never had this with a simple FI, without the econ, and TC). It's like a dead spot from idle to go. But, when driving normally it's smooth no matter what I'm using(econ,TC). Also it has been mentioned a couple of times that an automatic has a hesitation as well, and since I'm new to AM's it's a learning experience.
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From what you describe that is just the auto gearbox. TC should not be involved at all unless wheels are starting to skid from too much torque too little grip.

I drive very rarely automatics, when I rent or borrow, and I still cannot get a proper launch from one except for the pedal to the metal approach which is crude. I considered keeping a foot on the break and accelerating, then taking off the break karting style, but that is just cruel and unusual punishment to a transmission :) Never tried it, would not torture a car like that even a rental so not sure what happens if you do that.

Worst thing is when driving at higher speed and suddenly you need to speed up, manual you gear down and go, automatic you press, wait one second for the gear to realize you want to go faster, auto downshifts more than it should, engine screams painfully and eventually you move :) This happens for lower torque cars, bigger engine go faster, but the 1 sec gear box confusion is still there.
 
For the brake acceleration / power brake i mean in the FWD situation Civics have. I also noticed I typed break by mistake obviously since things will break if you do that :)
 
Monk said:
I was out playing with my VSA control(on and off) :
The positives while "OFF" is the lack of hesitation from a dead stop or crawl.
The negatives are jerkier throttle control, and braking(which "can" be controlled with a smooth foot).

With it "ON" :
I see no problems, except for the throttle hesitation.

Even with the econ on and the vsa off, the throttle was still smoother, than vsa on, and econ off.

That's my two cents worth.
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I've never seemed to econ mode . . . in anything.
 
Dragos said:
Here are my 2 cents:

If you try to launch the car and feel the grip and modulate the gas TC will kick in prematurely cut the gas a bit and then go back. With TC on foot all the way down works, but a faster launch is achieved with TC off and and listening to your tires. The idea is to accelerate close to the tire loosing grip but not more than that. The grip loose point varies with tire, temperature and of course RPM in relation to speed of the car.

I drove many cars that did not have TC so I guess if you try and drive it like that TC is more likely to mess up your launches.

A very fast launch is achieved arround 3.5 to 4k RPM and proper modulation of the throttle in my experience on this car. If TC kicks in or tires spin you loose speed.
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FP launch control is set to 4k!
 
colint said:
I've never seemed to econ mode . . . in anything.
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I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying/asking? Are so saying you've never seen a econ mode on our cars. ? I really don't know what the question/statement is.
 
Dragos said:
From what you describe that is just the auto gearbox. TC should not be involved at all unless wheels are starting to skid from too much torque too little grip.

I drive very rarely automatics, when I rent or borrow, and I still cannot get a proper launch from one except for the pedal to the metal approach which is crude. I considered keeping a foot on the break and accelerating, then taking off the break karting style, but that is just cruel and unusual punishment to a transmission :) Never tried it, would not torture a car like that even a rental so not sure what happens if you do that.

Worst thing is when driving at higher speed and suddenly you need to speed up, manual you gear down and go, automatic you press, wait one second for the gear to realize you want to go faster, auto downshifts more than it should, engine screams painfully and eventually you move :) This happens for lower torque cars, bigger engine go faster, but the 1 sec gear box confusion is still there.
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I'll try these things you mentioned to see if I can separate what's doing what(auto' / econ / TC) with these things on and off.
I would like to say I'm happy with my car, I think it's just the hesitation thing when I need it to move, if I can stomp on it if all else fails when I feel like I'm going to be T-boned, and it does take off, then anything will be copacetic.
 
Dragos said:
From what you describe that is just the auto gearbox. TC should not be involved at all unless wheels are starting to skid from too much torque too little grip.

I drive very rarely automatics, when I rent or borrow, and I still cannot get a proper launch from one except for the pedal to the metal approach which is crude. I considered keeping a foot on the break and accelerating, then taking off the break karting style, but that is just cruel and unusual punishment to a transmission :) Never tried it, would not torture a car like that even a rental so not sure what happens if you do that.

Worst thing is when driving at higher speed and suddenly you need to speed up, manual you gear down and go, automatic you press, wait one second for the gear to realize you want to go faster, auto downshifts more than it should, engine screams painfully and eventually you move :) This happens for lower torque cars, bigger engine go faster, but the 1 sec gear box confusion is still there.
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Exactly. TC does nothing until engaged by wheelspin. I think what your experiencing is drive by wire in addition to an auto trans. There will be some delay in the drive by wire and then the time it takes the trans to build pressure and engage. Granted its in milliseconds. Also I've noticed modern computer controlled auto transmissions act differently each and every time you try to accelerate from a stop. On a side note look up cvt transmission lag. My company vehicle has one and it literally takes 1.5 seconds or more for the transmission to engage when floored from a stop. Kinda feels like the trans has to "spool up" lol. After getting used to that the lag in my charger was barely noticable.
 
Very educational about auto' trans'..... What, at this time, I was thinking, it didn't do the Hes' off the stop or while idle driving when I turned both the econ and TC off. But from what you all are saying, I'm going to go out tomorrow and go to this big church parking lot and see what's up. Also didn't know auto' had to build pressure. (next stop goggle auto transmission)
 
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