fritz
Well-Known Member
Your absolutely right when you put it that way.
R18 Vs/Or K24's, That is the question
- Thread starter Monk
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trustdestruction
Well-Known Member
I also forgot to mention one is plain DOHC VTEC (for performance, GSR) while the other is the fuel efficiency version of SOHC iVTEC (R18)
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Monk
Well-Known Member
I can't say that there isn't a reason to go with a smaller block engine and modify it, there are wt. restrictions that are part of racing classes as well as other restrictions normal exasperated engines vs turbo, supercharged, etc. Also it isn't always about the money, it's IMO, about what I "want", a nice sounding and visual exhaust system doesn't make it any faster(by much), it's not to make the car look faster as it is to make it look like mine instead of the factory's. Like any mod, engine/interior/body/suspension, it's done for a multitude of personal reasons, to make it look nicer in the mind of the owner, everything doesn't have to be for the look of speed, just aesthetic looks can be enough to make my car belong to me. About the only thing I do to my cars is usually in the suspension department, the rest is in looks and also making things functionally better than stock inside and out.
One thing which I said earlier, is there's a "wanted" challenge with in myself to get my less powered car to preform to my best road handling taste, and having a high preforming engine defeats my need for the challenge. Driving an under preforming automatic Vs the ST, is just another piece of the challenge(I do know how to drive a ST, and have driven only ST's since the late 50's, and drove semi's professionally for years as well). As time goes on ppl can tire of the same thing, and want to try something different just to not be bored. I find trying to get the timing of the AT to work with me going though a series of turns where I need it to accelerate at the right time is a fun challenge since I've pretty much mastered the ST(from heel/toe, to shifting semi's with no clutch at all). There's just so many other factors to consider when trying to assess why someone's car is the way it is.
One thing which I said earlier, is there's a "wanted" challenge with in myself to get my less powered car to preform to my best road handling taste, and having a high preforming engine defeats my need for the challenge. Driving an under preforming automatic Vs the ST, is just another piece of the challenge(I do know how to drive a ST, and have driven only ST's since the late 50's, and drove semi's professionally for years as well). As time goes on ppl can tire of the same thing, and want to try something different just to not be bored. I find trying to get the timing of the AT to work with me going though a series of turns where I need it to accelerate at the right time is a fun challenge since I've pretty much mastered the ST(from heel/toe, to shifting semi's with no clutch at all). There's just so many other factors to consider when trying to assess why someone's car is the way it is.
The problem is not so much the size of the engine as the 1.8 vs the last gens K20 was a minimal 0.2L difference. Trouble with performance mods for the r18 engine are that every part of it has been engineered for efficiency. From a restrictive intake manifold, integrated exhaust, and even the single cam where the "hot" vtec lobes are designed for maximum mileage. It's the complete opposite on this cam of the K series and in general, Hondas VTEC.
You can make the DX/LX/EX cars handle very well but the power will simply not be there unless excessive $$ is spent per hp. You are fighting the design the whole way. There are performance cams available for the R series but they don't add much, only at the top, and at the expense of low end power.
I think aesthetics and handling are great ways to go. I did find a large improvement in driveability with an intake and pulleys. I also have an Si axle back just for a more "finished" appearance. I opted for the automatic for convenience. Lots of city driving and lots of eating on the way to work. Also... I love cruise control.
I would like a faster car but I have found that I can go plenty fast to get a nasty ticket even with this "underpowered" engine and AT.
You can make the DX/LX/EX cars handle very well but the power will simply not be there unless excessive $$ is spent per hp. You are fighting the design the whole way. There are performance cams available for the R series but they don't add much, only at the top, and at the expense of low end power.
I think aesthetics and handling are great ways to go. I did find a large improvement in driveability with an intake and pulleys. I also have an Si axle back just for a more "finished" appearance. I opted for the automatic for convenience. Lots of city driving and lots of eating on the way to work. Also... I love cruise control.
I would like a faster car but I have found that I can go plenty fast to get a nasty ticket even with this "underpowered" engine and AT.
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^ i agree completely with that statement, even though R18s arent designed to be performance oriented like k24s, they kick butt at what they are designed for, all while being plenty fast for the everyday driver.
And whenever that supercharger is compatible for the ninth gens that'll probably be the best performance mod for our engines hands down. Thats as far as i plan to go performance-wise with mine. In my opinion, trying to get more performance than a K24 dosent make sense to me, because you could've just bought an Si with the same $$. If only a tuning solution was out for us, im sure that wouldn't hurt a bit.
And whenever that supercharger is compatible for the ninth gens that'll probably be the best performance mod for our engines hands down. Thats as far as i plan to go performance-wise with mine. In my opinion, trying to get more performance than a K24 dosent make sense to me, because you could've just bought an Si with the same $$. If only a tuning solution was out for us, im sure that wouldn't hurt a bit.
The cool thing about the supercharger is that you can set the bypass valve on it so that if you drive carefully you won't develop boost down low and can maintain your stock mileage. Need to pass? Stomp it and get that 65hp+ kick. Kinda the best of both. I think. Hehehe. Besides wouldn't it be fun to have a serious sleeper? Im not talking a Mustang slaying Si or anything. But a nice quiet unassuming base model looking civic that with the race kit can push 240 at the wheels. They were posting numbers for the 8th gen with a stock exhaust system too.
Quiet
Mileage
and Fast?
Quiet
Mileage
and Fast?
Yup. 8thgen LX. Im planning on the supercharger as a reward for paying off both the car and my student loan. They are both within a few months of being completely paid. One CC is done and the second is almost as well. Then it's hammer time on the loans.
The only thing the 9th gen would have to wait for is the ECU reflash to be available as it is a stand alone tune or for hondata to be out for the 9th gen also. The engine is identical 8/9th so the kit should need just a minor tweak and the tuning.
The only thing the 9th gen would have to wait for is the ECU reflash to be available as it is a stand alone tune or for hondata to be out for the 9th gen also. The engine is identical 8/9th so the kit should need just a minor tweak and the tuning.
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Dragos
Well-Known Member
One of the cars that I enjoyed the most in my life was a 0.8 engine, 3 cylinders with something like 70HP, the car was small arround 600 kilos.
Any car can be a ton of fun, there's nothing wrong with 1.8 or 2.4 just a matter of priorities. I chose 2.4 since it provides a lot of power and fun while still being reliable and easy on the pocket.
It is the driver that makes a car go fast after all.
Any car can be a ton of fun, there's nothing wrong with 1.8 or 2.4 just a matter of priorities. I chose 2.4 since it provides a lot of power and fun while still being reliable and easy on the pocket.
It is the driver that makes a car go fast after all.
My first Honda was .23 liter (238cc) V-twin 16.1 hp and 12.4 tq. Granted it was a motorcycle, but it follows along the same lines here. I bought it to learn how to ride. I only had it for about year and traded up to a .58 liter (583cc) V-twin Honda with 39 hp and 36 tq. At this point is where modding (performance and appearance) started for me. My choice for my next bike is over twice as much in cost and engine size.
Point being...sometimes you work with what you can handle/afford and make it work until you can move up.
Also, something that no one has managed to point out and is more important for the younger crowd...insurance costs!
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Monk
Well-Known Member
I had a TR Spitfire 1296cc / wt.1600 lbs. and in a autocross(Gymkhana)Tight course I could not only take 1st place in my class but also 1st over all, I'm not saying this except to make a point about small lighter cars with small engines that can also take the 1st overall home. Some I can remember beating, TR6(inline 6);TVR;Jag(12 cyl) and a few others that could win in a straight line. That car was so much fun...............
trustdestruction
Well-Known Member
Thing is though, this car was lighter than the 9th gen and had performance minded SOHC VTEC. I would bet that it could beat the 9th gen with R18.
I had a D16Z6 del sol... It felt pretty quick for what it was (SOHC 1.6L)
team3d
Well-Known Member
i wanted a tw si sedan when i saw the 9th gen civic, my wife will not let me buy it, so, 1 year ago, i settle for a lease special, tw lx sedan with automatic transmission... here in los angeles, lx sedan auto is about $7000 cheaper than a si sedan.
if you see my posts, i'm more into cosmetics since i believe adding any performance parts to r18 is waste of money..
i have to admit, i was wrong.... totally wrong...
several months ago, we did a 7 all 9th gen civic street racing on the freeway... bone stock civic si can not over take r18 ! i was neck to neck with a bone stock si sedan.... because of my si rear bumper, the owner later ask me what did i do to my tw si sedan, i pop my hood and show him my car is actually r18 & it's automatic.
so, this can be a fluke....
now 3 days ago, we street racing again... this time with 8 cars... same thing happen, si can not over take me....
when me & my wife go vegas on a road trip, we usually take our c250 for safety reason, some people drive very fast on i15
i remember our last trip, i was following a 2nd gen tsx around 100mph, i high beam him, but he wouldn't yield, so i move to slow lane and floor the c250, the tsx also floor it, but within 5-7 seconds, i was able to overtake the tsx and cut in front of him
i don't understand why a 200whp modded civic si can not over take a 105whp r18 on the freeway... i am sure if you see a prius doing 100 on the freeway, you all know if you floor it, you can pull away easy with your civic si...
i am not saying r18 is faster than k24, but r18 is 300lbs lighter & with some real performance mod, it can go fast
i am going to do another run next week to see if the 2nd time is also a fluke...
if you see my posts, i'm more into cosmetics since i believe adding any performance parts to r18 is waste of money..
i have to admit, i was wrong.... totally wrong...
several months ago, we did a 7 all 9th gen civic street racing on the freeway... bone stock civic si can not over take r18 ! i was neck to neck with a bone stock si sedan.... because of my si rear bumper, the owner later ask me what did i do to my tw si sedan, i pop my hood and show him my car is actually r18 & it's automatic.
so, this can be a fluke....
now 3 days ago, we street racing again... this time with 8 cars... same thing happen, si can not over take me....
when me & my wife go vegas on a road trip, we usually take our c250 for safety reason, some people drive very fast on i15
i remember our last trip, i was following a 2nd gen tsx around 100mph, i high beam him, but he wouldn't yield, so i move to slow lane and floor the c250, the tsx also floor it, but within 5-7 seconds, i was able to overtake the tsx and cut in front of him
i don't understand why a 200whp modded civic si can not over take a 105whp r18 on the freeway... i am sure if you see a prius doing 100 on the freeway, you all know if you floor it, you can pull away easy with your civic si...
i am not saying r18 is faster than k24, but r18 is 300lbs lighter & with some real performance mod, it can go fast
i am going to do another run next week to see if the 2nd time is also a fluke...
trustdestruction
Well-Known Member
Definitely a fluke. That guy needs to learn how to drive
That. Either the other guy can't drive or....
If it's similar to the 8th gen the r18 has a better torque curve. Unless the RPMs really get up there the Si would have less power especially if they didn't down shift. Im saying like low rpms..2k-ish and at around 3k is when the r18 stops being in the econ vtec band of the cam.
I really don't see the Si being slower though.
If it's similar to the 8th gen the r18 has a better torque curve. Unless the RPMs really get up there the Si would have less power especially if they didn't down shift. Im saying like low rpms..2k-ish and at around 3k is when the r18 stops being in the econ vtec band of the cam.
I really don't see the Si being slower though.
trustdestruction
Well-Known Member
Well the K24 has a lot more torque than the K20 so I don't think that applies to the 9th
team3d
Well-Known Member
lol, i think so too, but.....1) you don't need skills to drive fast on a freeway & 2) my car is 100hp less than a si....
so, even an idiot that can not drive or shift, he/she just need to floor it & i am pretty sure you can beat a car that got 100hp less than yours
am i right ? anyone can just hop on a vette and floor it & can beat anyone with less hp on the freeway... there is no skill require.
1/4 mile require skills
so, even an idiot that can not drive or shift, he/she just need to floor it & i am pretty sure you can beat a car that got 100hp less than yours
am i right ? anyone can just hop on a vette and floor it & can beat anyone with less hp on the freeway... there is no skill require.
1/4 mile require skills
trustdestruction
Well-Known Member
I disagree. You have to downshift into the right part of the powerband and choose the best gear. The automatic does that for you.
team3d
Well-Known Member
this is why i have not post any progress of my civic on both forums...
me & robsbp been doing alot of research on r18..... def r18 can't do well on 1/4 mile, but so far, every si we race (only the freeway)... we have no problem keeping up with the stock si
20 years ago, if you bring your civic si & race a 5.0 mustang, people will laugh their asses off, every domestic guys will tell you, how can you beat a 200hp mustang with your 110hp civic ? even if you actually win, they will say, it;s a fluke, the guy in a mustang can't drive... etc...