First time on the track with my 2012 Civic Si sedan

[MarkA]

Latest update: My Progress Sway bar has arrived, and is awaiting installation. I figured out how to get my Motive Products pressurized brake bleeding kit to seal onto the top of the brake fluid reservoir, in anticipation of replacing the brake fluid with a high temp racing formula.

Meanwhile, it is race weekend at Watkins Glen. The Grand Am Rolex series is going on today. The Continental Tire Challenge was yesterday. We've been having thunderstorms moving through the area all weekend, so the weather can go from bright sunshine to pouring down rain and back to dry, sunny conditions within 10 minutes. It's been keeping the teams guessing as far as tire choice, and there have been a LOT of yellow flag laps as people go sliding all over the place when the rain starts.

I got to sit in one of the race-prepped Sis before the CTSCC race on Saturday. It is an odd combination of very familiar and radically different from a street car. Too bad they wouldn't let me *drive* it.....

 

[MarkA]

Another question for the "pros": how do you know when your rotors need to be replaced? Warped? Cracked? Grooves? Just don't like them anymore?

 

[squiggy]

Another question for the "pros": how do you know when your rotors need to be replaced? Warped? Cracked? Grooves? Just don't like them anymore?

jrotax101

 

[Nix]

They usually have a specified minimum safe thickness. It is sometimes stamped right on the rotor itself. Check the owners manual also, it may say in there. You would have to get a caliper and measure them. Jro may have some advice also.

 

[jrotax101]

I usually crack them before they get to min. thickness..

Rotors also very rarely warp. They are usually just uneven pad deposits due to overheating the compound.

 

[MarkA]

My new Centric rotors arrived yesterday. Man, those things are *heavy*!!! I guess it makes sense, but until I tried to lift the box with all 4 in it, I didn't appreciate just how heavy they are. Anyway, I plan to put them on before my next track outing, which will hopefully be at the end of the month.

 

[MarkA]

SUCCESS!!! WOOT!!!

I just installed my 22mm Progress rear sway bar! No major problems. I also used the Energy Suspension greaseable bushings, as suggested by Nix (thanks, Nix)! I can definitely confirm that they fit, but I don't know if it will be possible to use the grease fitting on the left bushing, as it doesn't clear the back of the fuel tank by very much.

I posted a message, detailing my experience, in the DIY thread about installing the Eibach sway bar.

The car feels GREAT on the road. I can't wait to get it to the track!

Thanks for all the encouragement and info I have found here. I couldn't have done it without you!

 

[squiggy]

Any plans for additional suspension upgrades?

Might I suggest starting a build thread?

http://9thcivic.com/forum/forums/build-threads.144/

 

[MarkA]

Any plans for additional suspension upgrades?

Might I suggest starting a build thread?

http://9thcivic.com/forum/forums/build-threads.144/

I suppose this thread is kind of turning into a build thread, isn't it? It would make sense to start a real one. I have looked at some of the existing ones. What is "DBP" in "Squiggy's 2012 DBP II Si Coupe"? What is "CBP"?

 

[squiggy]

I suppose this thread is kind of turning into a build thread, isn't it? It would make sense to start a real one. I have looked at some of the existing ones. What is "DBP" in "Squiggy's 2012 DBP II Si Coupe"? What is "CBP"?

Those are color abbreviations. Mine is Dyno Blue Pearl II. The "II" is there because there is a slight variation in the paint. Not sure if it is due to a reformulation later in production or different formulation based on where the cars are manufactured.

 

[MarkA]

Second HPDE completed. Car still has all its paint.

I just finished my second, two-day High Performance Driving Education event at Watkins Glen, with Trackmasters. Since my first event, in early June, I have replaced the rear sway bar with a 22 mm Progress bar, and installed camber bolts, giving 0.7 degrees negative camber (I'd like closer to -2 deg, so I may add a second set). I had also replaced my brake fluid with Motul RBF600, installed new rotors, and bedded them against a set of CarboTech XP10 brake pads. Tires are still showroom stock Michelin, all season.

The car handled beautifully! The photos aren't up yet, but it looked like there is still quite a bit of body roll, but the understeer has been reduced considerably. A 24 mm sway bar might have helped even more. I'm glad I didn't get the 19 mm one!

The brakes were also rock solid. After 2 days, totalling 4 hours of on-track time, there is still plenty of pad left. They never got soft or mushy. They certainly did get hot, though. After one of the sessions, I was sitting in the car, being de-briefed by the instructor, when I noticed wisps of smoke drifting past the passenger window! I jumped out of the car, but nothing was on fire....just the right front caliper letting off a little smoke.

In the center of each wheel, there is a little, round piece of plastic with the Honda "H" on it. It is held in place by plastic tabs. It covers the hub in the center of the wheel. One of the wheels got so hot that the plastic tabs got soft, and bent back, so now the hub cover won't stay on. I noticed it laying on the ground, next to where I had parked the car. I didn't realize that it was mine!

So, how fast was I going? My best lap time for this session was about 3 seconds quicker than it was in June, before the suspension mods. Top speed is still just shy of 120 mph. I don't know if the faster lap times are from me getting better, or the car being set up better. Probably some of both.

I did have one especially educational experience, during the first session. On about the third lap, as I was starting to build my speed, I went wide coming out of turn 5 (aka, the Carousel). When I tried to tighten the steering as I was driving over the alligator teeth, the car started to fish tail. It went about 3 cycles back and forth, before I came to a stop. I didn't actually spin, so I can't claim membership in the "720 club". That's for another day. Fortunately, it was right where the "NASCAR straight" comes off the rest of the track, so I just wound up taking a little shortcut. Didn't get any grass stains on the tires, or any ARMCO scrapes on the body panels. It sure was exciting! Nothing feels quite like going sideways at about 70 mph.

Several other people in the group had more powerful cars, but less track experience. As a result, I was able to pass 3 of the Corvettes, 2 of the BMWs, and one of the Porsches. I also passed one of the Acura NSXs, though he had backed off a bit after passing me 2 laps earlier. One of the Corvettes was going so slowly, up through the "Esses", I nearly ran into his back end! However, when the Corvettes, BMWs, and Porsches were being driven by more experienced drivers, they blew past me like I was standing still!

There was also a 2009 Civic Si coupe there. He was complaining bitterly about the lack of torque at the lower RPMs. That's one area where Honda really made the Si better in the 9th generation. There was also a full-race converted 9th gen Si Coupe. He wasn't in the student group, though.

So, my next mod will definitely be brake cooling ducts up front. Soon. Also, a second set of camber bolts. Coil overs, lower springs - next year. Dedicated track tires and wheels...who knows? Christmas is coming....

 

[Nix]

Sweet! I like how you were able to house the guys in more powerful cars! hahahaha I bet they were thinking... omg is that a Honda?

 

[MarkA]

Sweet! I like how you were able to house the guys in more powerful cars! hahahaha I bet they were thinking... omg is that a Honda?

I was talking to the NSX driver. His instructor was talking to him about the importance of slowing down a bit if you don't feel in control. He told him not to feel bad if he got passed by a lower power car, like a Honda; those things are little rockets! Several of the other students also commented to me that they were surprised how fast I was.

The best one was an M3. We only pass other cars when they give a "point" (a hand signal) to the car that wants to overtake. The M3 was painfully slow through the turns, so I was sitting right on his rear bumper. When we got to the next straight, he gave me a point, but he was already pulling away from me when he gave it! I had the pedal to the metal, and he was expecting me to be able to pass him. I was able to get by him on the entry to the next corner.

I was just out in the garage, letting some of the pressure out of the tires, and discovered that I have lost the plastic wheel hub cover for the other front wheel! I think that shows a certain amount of balance. I think I will not replace them. The car looks pretty cool without them.

 

[MarkA]

OK, race fans. Here's some photos from my last HPDE. Enjoy.

Here I am showing a Corvette how to climb through the Esses. There is much less body roll with the Progress sway bar installed:

Here's what a full race prepped Civic looks like. He doesn't know about the black Plasti Dip trick for the nose insignia:


Here's what I'd be driving if I didn't have a wife and kids:

 

[MarkA]

Of rotors and brake pads.

I took the rotors and pads that I used on the track off my car, and put the OEM ones back on. Looking at the pads, I noticed something interesting. The front pad that was against the piston was actually bent, so that there was less pad material left in the middle compared to the ends. The pads that were on the non-piston side of the caliper were flat, with even wear. It would seem to me that if the pads are getting so hot they are actually deforming the backing, that would be a bad thing.

The pad at the far right shows the impression from the piston on the backing plate.



A view of the edge shows the curvature of the backing plate, and the difference in pad thickness in the middle versus the ends:



The two pads to the right were the non-piston side. They have considerably more pad material, and are not deformed.




The two pads on the left were under the piston:






Also, the rotors show some grooving. Does that mean they need to be replaced?


Outside (non-piston) side:



Inside (piston) side:



So, I have seen multiple effects of excessive heat from the pads: smoke coming from the wheel well after coming off track, the wheel getting hot enough to deform the plastic cap in the middle of the wheel, and deformity of the brake pad backing plate from the piston. Should I be concerned about heat damage to any other portion of the front suspension? What about the ball joints? Tie rod ends? What about the rotors? Are they still good? How about the next time I go on track? Clearly, air ducts would be helpful, but if I can't find any, do I just need to back off on the braking?

As always, advice and comments are appreciated!

 

[MarkA]

jrotax101 - I was hoping you would have some comments regarding my last post. Do I have to ease up on my braking? Install air ducts? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. BTW, the Carbotech XP10 pads were GREAT, as was the Motul RBF600 fluid. Pedal feel was rock-solid through both days, with no fade that I could detect.

 

[323]

jrotax101 - I was hoping you would have some comments regarding my last post. Do I have to ease up on my braking? Install air ducts? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. BTW, the Carbotech XP10 pads were GREAT, as was the Motul RBF600 fluid. Pedal feel was rock-solid through both days, with no fade that I could detect.

Hey Mark, I know he is in the middle of moving right now so it might taken him a little while to see this, but rest assured he will now that you tagged him.
Just letting you know it might be a few days

 

[MarkA]

Hey Mark, I know he is in the middle of moving right now so it might taken him a little while to see this, but rest assured he will now that you tagged him.
Just letting you know it might be a few days

Ouch! Moving sucks. I've done it 5 times. The best thing about it is that motivates you to get rid of the crap that you've accumulated, that is too valuable to throw out, but not useful enough to actually use every day. Nothing like the prospect of having to move it makes you seriously examine its true value!

 

[jrotax101]

So the marks on the rotors look like uneven pad deposits - this can be a sign of a) inferior quality rotor material, or b)overheating the pad compound causing uneven transfer.
You can fix this with high quality 2pc rotors, or more efficient cooling. If you are new to the track, your braking technique could also be contributing to this. A lot of new people often keep their foot on the brakes for far too long with not enough pressure. This creates excess heat among other things.

The pad - I can't tell what I'm looking at. Is the actual backing plate of the pad warped? Or is it the pad material wearing unevenly? A common occurrence with single piston, sliding calipers is bad tapering on the pads. This is where a 4 or 6 piston fixed BBK caliper shines.

If you drive around on the street without getting the brakes hot, you should remove the deposit marks with the friction of the track pads.

 

[Jonathong]

Trying to build my car up so I can start tracking it soon, what are some recommended mods to do? Only thing I have right now are lowering springs, lightweight buddyclub wheels and I do plan to purchase a bigger sway bar for the rear. Many thanks in advance for any guidance.