First time on the track with my 2012 Civic Si sedan

[MarkA]

I just finished a two-day driving school with my 2012 Si. The car did very, very well.

I would consider myself an advanced student. I have not yet been cleared for open track driving, but probably will be the next time I am out. My car is a fairly stock 2012 Si sedan. I put in a CT Engineering short shifter and CorSport base bushings, by following the most excellent DIY thread by squiggy. I also put on Hawk Performance HPS brake pads, front and rear. I also screwed on a Sparco throttle pedal over the stock pedal, to make heel-toe downshifting easier. I don't know why there is such a huge gap between the stock gas and brake pedal, but there is. It's easy to fix with a drill and a new pedal cover. Everything else was showroom stock, including the Michelin Pilot MxM4 tires.

The track was Watkins Glen International, in upstate NY. WGI is a fast, wide track, about 3.4 miles long. There were 4 sessions of 30 min each on track with an instructor on each day. The last session of the second day I was cleared to drive solo, which made the car about 250 pounds lighter.

Most of the other cars in the school were Corvettes, BMWs, and Porsches. I was definitely one of the slowest cars, horsepower-wise. (One of the other cars was a beautiful, lemon-yellow, 2001 Acura NSX. I think I left a few drool stains on the fender). Horsepower differences aside, I managed to pass one of the Corvettes, and had more than one fellow student remark that they didn't know Hondas could go so fast. My top speed was 119.29, and my best lap time was 2:35.5. For data collection, I used the "Trackmaster" app for my Android phone, along with a Qstarz GPS logger.

Another bonus for the outing: the classroom instructor was Adam Burrows, who drives an Si Coupe for Compass 360 Racing in the GrandAm Continental Tire series. I got to have him in the passenger seat for a few laps, and we got to talk about the unique challenges of driving a front-wheel drive car at speed. The GrandAm race will be coming to WGI later this month.

My on track instructor had a Scion FR-S, and took me for a few laps in that. That's a nice little car, too. He previously drove an Si, and said he could get about 3 or 4 seconds faster times in the FR-S.

So, how did my car do? It turns out the brake pads were not as good for track running as I had hoped they'd be. They were getting quite soft at the end of each session. I put them on my car new, about 1 month ago. As I was leaving the track to come home, I could hear the low pad indicators making noise. When I got home, I changed back to the stock pads, and the front track pads were down to a few millimeters. The rear pads still had a fair amount left. The tires made a lot of noise in the turns, but held on well. I did have a lot of understeer, as I was tending to enter the turns a little too fast. The shifter was fantastic. Fuel was an issue. I had to go down into town to buy more gas between the 3rd and 4th sessions on the first day. I was getting about 10 mpg on the track.

I'm planning to go to the Sahlen's 6 hour at the Glen later this month, to see how the pros do it. It should be fun to watch. For my next outing, I will, at the very least, get better brake pads, and possibly rotors, and high temp brake fluid. It would be nice to get some wider, stickier tires, too, but I don't know if my pocketbook can take that much of a beating.

Does anyone else have any on-track experiences to share? I'll probably go out again later this summer, and hope to do better with some more track-worthy equipment.

 

[liljusepy]

I am working on some track prep as well, it'll be August before I can get out due to summer session at school.

 

[webby]

Very nice! jrotax101 may have some helpful input on your setup, or what may help you out. He's instructed on various tracks.

 

[Nix]

Awesome man! Did you go out with the trackmasters program?

Where in upstate are you from?

 

[njhustler]

Sounds like you had a blast. Seems like you have your mod list on track. Aside from suspension , power upgrades and what you said , I would suggest ss brake lines.

 

[jrotax101]

Welcome to the addiction of track time.

Any questions, feel free to ask. I've been around this stuff for a LONG time.

Regarding mods:
RBF600 fluid and high quality track pads.
HP+ etc are not track pads and they suck. Carbotech XP10, Hawk HT10,DTC series, Cobalt XR6/4 are all high quality. Curious as to what you had on if they didn't perform well.
Stainless steel lines are an interesting one. They are consumables. They dont last as long as OEM lines and need to be replaced every few years. Some people like them, some don't. They wont help with your brake fade but will provide a somewhat stiffer pedal, depending on the booster setup on the 9ths.

Bigger sticker tires = more braking capability = higher temps in the system as you use the brakes more, so one of the above pads is recommended for sure. Don't go too aggressive with the pads though as they can overwhelm the ABS/tires if you're not on r-comps.

 

[webby]

I was waiting on rear sway bar talk

 

[squiggy]

Welcome to the addiction of track time.

Any questions, feel free to ask. I've been around this stuff for a LONG time.

Stainless steel lines are an interesting one. They are consumables. They dont last as long as OEM lines and need to be replaced every few years. Some people like them, some don't. They wont help with your brake fade but will provide a somewhat stiffer pedal, depending on the booster setup on the 9ths.

Can you elaborate more? Why don't they last? Is there a benefit to a stiffer pedal? Etc?

 

[MarkA]

Can you elaborate more? Why don't they last? Is there a benefit to a stiffer pedal? Etc?

Squiggy: I want to thank you for your DIY series on installing the shifter and base bushings. I have never been much of a "greaser", but decided, this year, that if I'm going to be serious about driving on the track, I need to learn a few basic car-wrenching skills. So, I bought a few tools, watched some videos on youtube, memorized your DIY messages, and a) changed my own brake pads, b) installed the short shifter/bushings, and c) installed a new throttle pedal. I was surprised at how easy it was to change brake pads by myself. I only broke one (unimportant) bolt, and a few plastic clips doing the shifter mod. The real challenge was getting that little blue, plastic cup off the end of the shifter, but I did it.

My son has a Subaru that has a short shifter installed, and it is *really* short! I thought the CT Engineering adapter didn't shorten the throw as much as I was expecting it to, but it still makes a big difference. If you have ever driven at WGI, you know that coming up through the "Esses" requires an upshift, at about 100 mph, as the weight of the car is shifting from one side to the other. I was real glad that I could slam it from 4th to 5th in that brief moment when the car's weight is centered, before entering turn 4. It felt rock-solid.

I'm also curious as to why stainless steel brake lines should be less durable than the OEM ones. I would expect the opposite to be true.

 

[Nix]

Since no one else said it yet.....

Definitely look into a larger rear sway bar for the car. It will help the handling tremendously and cut down the understeer.

It is an easy DIY project.

 

[squiggy]

Squiggy: I want to thank you for your DIY series on installing the shifter and base bushings. I have never been much of a "greaser", but decided, this year, that if I'm going to be serious about driving on the track, I need to learn a few basic car-wrenching skills. So, I bought a few tools, watched some videos on youtube, memorized your DIY messages, and a) changed my own brake pads, b) installed the short shifter/bushings, and c) installed a new throttle pedal. I was surprised at how easy it was to change brake pads by myself. I only broke one (unimportant) bolt, and a few plastic clips doing the shifter mod. The real challenge was getting that little blue, plastic cup off the end of the shifter, but I did it.

My son has a Subaru that has a short shifter installed, and it is *really* short! I thought the CT Engineering adapter didn't shorten the throw as much as I was expecting it to, but it still makes a big difference. If you have ever driven at WGI, you know that coming up through the "Esses" requires an upshift, at about 100 mph, as the weight of the car is shifting from one side to the other. I was real glad that I could slam it from 4th to 5th in that brief moment when the car's weight is centered, before entering turn 4. It felt rock-solid.

I'm also curious as to why stainless steel brake lines should be less durable than the OEM ones. I would expect the opposite to be true.

Thank you for the compliment and glad to be of help.

Now for two things:

First: Short shifter is a bit of a misnomer. A short shifter/shift adapter strictly refers to the reduction in the travel distance of the shift (or throw). Too often people mistake the shifter height--or lack there of--and think of that as what qualifies a short shifter or they think a lowered height will reduce the throw. This IS NOT the case at all. Height is purely a preference due to many factors. What is more important is where the fulcrum is in relation to each end. This is what will determine throw distance. All a short shift adapter does is move the fulcrum point up the shifter to reduce the amount of movement (again throw) between each gear.

Second: I am not a grease monkey myself, but feel I can tackle about anything given the time, resources, and most importantly...patience. On my 7th gen, I decided to change the timing belt on my own without having ever done it. It took me about two hours longer than the mechanics rated time of 8 hours. I was happy with that considering I was learning. However, I had a leak in what I thought was the crankshaft seal and had to tear it down again completely. Only took me about four hours the second time.

Which brings me back around to the adapter and base bushings. I was pretty much flying blind outside of the crappy photocopy instructions and some mention about what to be aware of here on the board. I tend to utilize DIYs for a great many things online and felt it was my time to contribute with a high quality set of pictures and instructions. I encourage everyone to do the same!

 

[MarkA]

I was waiting on rear sway bar talk

That would be a good topic for discussion, I think!

Here's a picture of my Si in a fast, left-hand turn (I believe this is turn 10 at WGI):


Compare the body roll of the Si to that of a Mazda Speed3:



and a Porsche Cayman:



Yikes! Those other drivers weren't slackers, either!

To my eye, it looks like the Mazda is cornering as flat as the Porsche, while the Honda looks like it wants to roll over and have its belly rubbed!

So, how do I fix that?

 

[MarkA]

Awesome man! Did you go out with the trackmasters program?

Where in upstate are you from?

Yes, the school was through Trackmasters. Very well organized.

I live just outside Watkins Glen. I've driven the track there several times. It's the only track I've driven on, except for go-karts at Cherry Valley, just south of Syracuse. I'd like to get to Lime Rock one of these years!

How about you? Do you live in Iceland or something, as your profile seems to suggest?

 

[323]

^^ Coilovers, check out the suspension link in my signature for options and details

 

[Nix]

Heh, im mostly Swedish. Lived in the North Country for a long time. It was always cold and freezing.

I travel a lot between Rochester and Syracuse. Live in Roch mostly. I had thought about the trackmasters program. Looked awesome and this is definitely confirmation. One of my uncles used to race open wheel formula cars at the glen all the time. Formula ford and formula mazdas mostly.

 

[MarkA]

Since my last post, I've been doing a little research. Here's what I'm thinking, regarding my next outing:

Brakes: when my brakes were losing effect, the pedal definitely felt soft, which suggests that the fluid might be boiling. So, in addition to "track only" brake pads, which I will have to change at the track, I need to replace my brake fluid. So, now the questions:

1. how do YOU bleed your brakes? I have seen a company that sells bleeding valves, that you install on the caliper, that has a built-in check valve. (www.speedbleeder.com). Has anyone used these? I was thinking of buying a pressurized bleeding system, as that would be the least likely to have air leaks. Are speedbleeders reliable enough for track use?

2. In one of the tutorials I watched about changing front brake pads, they used a "C clamp" to compress the piston on the caliper to make room for the new pads. One of the commenters said that was a BIG no-no, because there is some internal valve in the system that could be damaged by forcing the piston in without having the bleeder valve open. Is that true? I've changed my front pads twice, using the C-clamp method both times.

3. When I took my hybrid brake pads off, after about 80 laps, the front ones were almost completely worn down, while the rear ones still had quite a bit of pad material left. Is it good/bad/indifferent to only use high-temp pads on the front, and leave stock ones, or hybrid street/track pads, on the back?

4. Any more discussion about stainless steel brake lines? Are they worth it?

Regarding suspension mods, I posted the pictures showing how much body roll the Si has compared to a Mazda and a Porsche, at about the same time Nix was posting his recommendation that I put a stiffer roll bar on the back. I had assumed that swapping roll bars would be a big job, but Nix describes it as an easy DIY job. Really? If it is, I'm all for it! Understeer was a BIG issue, and it it's easy to fix, I'll give it a go. The Eibach bar seems to be a popular choice. It is listed on "procivic.com". Any other good suppliers for Honda performance parts? Should I plan to do the front sway bar, as well?

I would also be OK with lowering the car a wee bit, as it does sit somewhat high, with new springs/coilovers, but that's on the back burner for now.

I have to upload an avatar. Shouldn't be too hard.

Regarding data collection: I would be interested, at some point, in collecting data about the car while it is on the track: steering wheel position, brake pressure, throttle position, etc. As the Si uses an electronic throttle, can the throttle position be read out from the ECU? Does anyone have any telemetry installed? Who would be a good source of such sensors/data aquisition systems?

So, that's where my head is at right now. As always, comments and advice are appreciated!

 

[webby]

Another post jrotax101 would probably know best. He probably has more track experience than anyone

 

[Nix]

If I am wrong anyone who knows more feel free to correct me but as far as I know:

When changing the front brake pads, as long as you crack open the fluid reservoir you should be fine using the C-Clamp method. Put a piece of wood between the clamp and the piston though so you don't force it too far back, just flush with the brake body.

The rear discs you should NOT use the clamp. The rear piston needs to be rotated as well as pressed in. There are special tools available especially for rear brakes of this type that rotate and compress.



REAR SWAY BAR: Heres a nice DIY on it.
http://9thcivic.com/forum/threads/eibach-19mm-rear-sway-bar-install-part-numbers-included.4808/

I would really recommend the Progress 22mm rear sway for your Si. The difference in the size of swaybars is the sum of squares. The Progress bar is a 34% increase over the 19mm, which I think is stock size on the Si anyway.

Also you won't have to change out the frame brackets or run adapters with the Progress bar. It'll bolt right up. The Progress bar also comes with reinforcement plates for the rear lower arm where the endlink attaches. You can buy upgraded Moog endlinks but people were breaking the mounting point on the rear lower arm not the endlink during track sessions.

I think you're close enough by, if you'd like a hand putting a rear sway on Id be glad to drive down and help out.

 

[jrotax101]

Brakes: when my brakes were losing effect, the pedal definitely felt soft, which suggests that the fluid might be boiling. So, in addition to "track only" brake pads, which I will have to change at the track, I need to replace my brake fluid. So, now the questions:

1. Speed bleeders are OK. I pressure or vacuum bleed (depending on where the car is) and then use a computer to bleed the ABS unit also (different car).

2. That's fine. Use a big *** screwdriver to turn the rear pistons in

3. run track pads all around.

4. Try it and keep an eye on them. (rubbing etc)

Regarding data collection: http://www.ogracing.com/aim-solo-dl-gps-laptimer-obdii

 

[MarkA]

Ah, well, I didn't open the Master Cylinder reservoir when I changed pads, either. I'll remember that for next time. I also forgot to turn off the VSA switch when I was on the track. Another item for the checklist! For the front pads, I just used the old pad between the clamp and piston, to provide a flat surface to push against. On the rear, I got a little tool to rotate/compress the piston: it looks like a cube with small pins sticking out on each side. The guy at the store wanted me to buy a fancy tool, but the little cube works just fine.

For the sway bar, the stock sizes, according to the thread in this very forum, is 18mm front, 15 mm rear. The Eibach bar is 19 mm. Progress now has TWO models to choose from, a 22 mm and a 24 mm. The 24 mm model is adjustable, with 3 settings. Procivic.com also has sway bars from CT Engineering (19mm), and Whiteline (22 mm). I've not seen any discussion of either of these, have you?

As far as coming to lend a hand, that would be great! As squiggy said, you can muddle through most anything with a few tools, and a LOT of patience.