2012 Civic Si Rev Hang - Software Update

Bruce Bartlow said:
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I bought the extended warranty as well. But once I decided to use Hondata I went back to the dealer and canceled the contract and got a full refund. It was within 30 days. But you can still get a prorated refund if you want to drop it...which is most of it.
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Great idea. I have an appointment tomorrow at 8:00 am. If I have a poor outcome, I may deep-six the extra warranty, still within 30 days. Thanks Bruce.
 
I also got the extended warranty. Since I'm planning on modifying my car, I wonder if I should also drop my extended warranty. I have had the car for about 4 months though.
 
WhiteFG4 said:
I also got the extended warranty. Since I'm planning on modifying my car, I wonder if I should also drop my extended warranty. I have had the car for about 4 months though.
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I wouldn't drop mine because of mods, but because I may not want to drive this car beyond the warranty period.
 
WhiteFG4 said:
I also got the extended warranty. Since I'm planning on modifying my car, I wonder if I should also drop my extended warranty. I have had the car for about 4 months though.
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It's a tough decision. I paid about $1300 for a total of 7 years and 80,000 miles. But once I decided on Hondata I got the refund. Besides, I don't think I'll drive the car anywhere near 80,000 miles. Bottom line -- I worry enough about the basic warranty... I didn't want to spend another grand (on extended warranty) and not get anything for it. When the dealer see a modification like Hondata it's all over in terms of warranty coverage... at least that's the definite impression I got from the dealer here. Tough decision, though... good luck.. .go with your gut feeling on it.
 
hondata is not going to void your entire car warranty. Warranty issues would result from breaking a part of the car...and it being caused by the aftermarket part.

Under the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975, an automotive dealership/carmaker cannot void your warranty because your vehicle has been modified with aftermarket parts. They (the manufacturers) have to prove that the failure was the direct result of the installed aftermarket part. Unfortunately, too many folks have gone to a dealer to have warranty service performed on their modified vehicle only to have the dealer refuse to cover the defective items. The dealer usually states, that because of the aftermarket parts installed, the warranty is void (without even attempting to determine whether or not the aftermarket part caused the problem). This is illegal...period.

Examples where the dealership will not cover your repairs under warranty
You install an aftermarket air dam system to channel more air to the cold air intake system that you installed. The air dam system causes the vehicle to overheat because it restricts airflow over the radiator. As a result of overheating, the engine blows a head gasket and a cylinder head is warped. The car is still under warranty. You take it to your dealer and they determine that the aftermarket air dam system caused the overheating and thus the cylinder head damage and gasket failure. The carmaker is not obligated to perform any repairs under the provisions of the warranty.
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webby said:
hondata is not going to void your entire car warranty. Warranty issues would result from breaking a part of the car...and it being caused by the aftermarket part.
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That's right, webby. I had that discussion with the service manager today. I was very frank with him after he test drove my Si with me this am, and then personally put it on the mcvi. He then realized the mcvi needed to be up to date and updated it from Honda's server through a laptop. It then showed an update for my July 2012 build, the update was dated August 30, 2012 (I forget the rev. no. I have it at work. He put the battery booster on and flashed the ecu, admittedly not knowing what the update pertained to. FWIW, there was no difference in the rev hang, which he had acknowledged was present and had placed in his report. It even over-revved on an upshift for him during the test drive.

Back to frankness. I told him that I had less than a week to decide what to do about the extended warranty and that I was tempted by Hondata. I told him if Honda had a fix like Hondata's, I'd pay Honda extra for it. Of course Honda does not have a fix. He mentioned that Honda NA really dislikes Hondata, the main reason being its handling of the two rev limiters that Honda sets to protect against catastrophic over-revs. He's seen a car come in with a blown engine and it had revved well over 10k (may have been gen 8 car). Anyway, he advised against Hondata, but had no remedy for me. So, if you blow your engine in a reflashed car, its on you. If something else unrelated goes, different story.

I have a call in to the Honda NA case manager for my case as to what I do next.
 
There is nothing stopping you from downshifting while driving on the highway and revving to 10k or higher and blowing the motor (in the stock car). Hondata is no different in that regard. That's entirely user error. You cannot drive the car from a stop to 10k rpm with hondata. Yes, the redline is raised to 7600 with hondata, but you'll still hit the limiter/fuel cutoff. The only way you hit 10k or worse....user error on downshifting. That goes for stock or with hondata. Moral of the story.... don't downshift into 2nd gear doing 80mph trying to race some idiot on the highway.
 
webby said:
hondata is not going to void your entire car warranty. Warranty issues would result from breaking a part of the car...and it being caused by the aftermarket part.
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Thanks for the chapter and verse on Magnuson Moss. As an Amsoil dealer, I ran into that law a lot because most Amsoil products weren't API certified. (Actually, Amsoil makes products far superior than those required by API's minimum standards and saved the cost of licensing the API logo) Anyway, back to Honda and Hondata. Ultimately there's a difference between theory and practice. The customer may be right, but I'm guessing most customers will be out-gunned by Honda's legal team.

If Hondata is listening, this is the main reason why they should keep max RPM completely unchanged. We all know the engine can handle the extra (what 200?) RPM redline. But in all likelihood the dealer would use that as a excuse not to buy you a new engine. Does anybody know whether FlashPro would enable us to keep the more conservative parameters? I don't know... I'm thinking that a basically stock engine (just without rev hang) would help retain a good relationship with the dealer. No doubt it's more complicated than that... but we know excess RPM's is THE major red flag at the dealer.
 
colint said:
That's right, webby. I had that discussion with the service manager today. I was very frank with him after he test drove my Si with me this am, and then personally put it on the mcvi. He then realized the mcvi needed to be up to date and updated it from Honda's server through a laptop. It then showed an update for my July 2012 build, the update was dated August 30, 2012 (I forget the rev. no. I have it at work. He put the battery booster on and flashed the ecu, admittedly not knowing what the update pertained to. FWIW, there was no difference in the rev hang, which he had acknowledged was present and had placed in his report. It even over-revved on an upshift for him during the test drive.

Back to frankness. I told him that I had less than a week to decide what to do about the extended warranty and that I was tempted by Hondata. I told him if Honda had a fix like Hondata's, I'd pay Honda extra for it. Of course Honda does not have a fix. He mentioned that Honda NA really dislikes Hondata, the main reason being its handling of the two rev limiters that Honda sets to protect against catastrophic over-revs. He's seen a car come in with a blown engine and it had revved well over 10k (may have been gen 8 car). Anyway, he advised against Hondata, but had no remedy for me. So, if you blow your engine in a reflashed car, its on you. If something else unrelated goes, different story.

I have a call in to the Honda NA case manager for my case as to what I do next.
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Great report.. thx. By the way, the extended warranty (HondaCare) is fully refundable on a pro-rated basis. Even if you're past the 30 or 60 days, the cost will be minimal.
 
webby said:
A software update is now available for 2012 Honda Civic Si vehicles in the US. You need to take your vehicle to your nearest dealership to have the update done.

"Recommended Program Update X0A050"

The dealership will need to connect their MVCI tester to your car and will provide a trouble code reading "PGM-FI". The software update Program is supposed to greatly help/remove the rev hang.


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-3vwk4mnF4


"Rev Hang" is described as the throttle floating/hanging after you've put the clutch in/stopped pushing the gas, and the rpms do not drop.

At this point, the info has not spread around to all dealership staff. Most will have no clue what you are talking about until they hook your car up to the MVCI tester & see the trouble code first hand.
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So does this mean that by doing this "update" it removes the rev-hang from the vehicle?
 
webby said:
There is nothing stopping you from downshifting while driving on the highway and revving to 10k or higher and blowing the motor (in the stock car).
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Then the service mgr was just wrong about that part of his analysis. Thanks for clearing that up webby.
 
Has anyone figured out what the difference is in the ECU upgrade they did from 37820-RX0-A03 to the new RX0-A05 . I would say it the difference in the software as well?

Sent from my MB865 using Tapatalk
 
^ it's software/tune is different in some way.

colint - you can try this for yourself. I believe the only gear you will be unable to downshift into is 1st gear. Drive at say 30+some mph in 2nd gear and attempt to get the shifter to go into 1st (Keep the clutch pressed the entire time in case it lets you into 1st)... but it should lock you out of 1st until your speed is reduced. Other cars are this way as well, but usually no other gear blocks downshifts that way. All it would take is releasing the clutch completely and you'd be over redline and boom. Honda has used 1st gear lockouts for a while. Test other gears if you'd like the same way, but increase your speed.
 
Bruce Bartlow said:
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Thanks for the chapter and verse on Magnuson Moss. As an Amsoil dealer, I ran into that law a lot because most Amsoil products weren't API certified. (Actually, Amsoil makes products far superior than those required by API's minimum standards and saved the cost of licensing the API logo) Anyway, back to Honda and Hondata. Ultimately there's a difference between theory and practice. The customer may be right, but I'm guessing most customers will be out-gunned by Honda's legal team.

If Hondata is listening, this is the main reason why they should keep max RPM completely unchanged. We all know the engine can handle the extra (what 200?) RPM redline. But in all likelihood the dealer would use that as a excuse not to buy you a new engine. Does anybody know whether FlashPro would enable us to keep the more conservative parameters? I don't know... I'm thinking that a basically stock engine (just without rev hang) would help retain a good relationship with the dealer. No doubt it's more complicated than that... but we know excess RPM's is THE major red flag at the dealer.
Click to expand...
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Adrizzzle08 said:
So does this mean that by doing this "update" it removes the rev-hang from the vehicle?
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I am in the camp that saw no difference because I already had the "05" update. My car was built just this last June in 2012. If your car was made earlier this year and had the original ECU (that ends with "03) then you would probably see improvement from the update ending in 05. Whether that improvement would be enough for you is the question. No-one but you can answer that. The engine still hangs, yes, but most reports suggest it's not as bad. In terms of the "over-rev" problem where the engine revs actually increase after you depress the clutch... that is 80 - 90% gone except at certain odd times. At least it is on mine.

Drive careful... this car's a monster!:hitit:
 
mongoose221 said:
yeah mine was a late build with the 05 update. there is a newer one from august? if so i'd be excited b/c frankly, my revhang is annoying as crap still.
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No, I know of nothing more recent than "05" update. And like you, I've had enough irritation so I'm ready to do something, regardless of potential warranty issues. Hey, let's get a survey going of how many want FlashPro versus a simple reflash. Maybe we can put together a package deal with Hondata...
 
colint said:
Great idea. I have an appointment tomorrow at 8:00 am. If I have a poor outcome, I may deep-six the extra warranty, still within 30 days. Thanks Bruce.
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i hear ya. Webby's right, it doesn't kill the entire warranty. But if you bought the warranty primarily for the engine/tranny coverage, deep-six sounds smart.
 
Bruce Bartlow said:
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But if you bought the warranty primarily for the engine/tranny coverage, deep-six sounds smart.
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Yup. It was $1,000 for the extra months 36 through 60 and 60k miles. The engine and driveline are the only things I really worry about. I can't get in there and fix any of that new, complex stuff.
 
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