Cold Start "Scraping/Rattle" Noise Grinding Cold Start - VTC Actuator Merged Threads

Bulkybear said:
I believe Johnny is correct with the timing belt information. As far as oil starvation, I'm not sure it causes as much damage as people seem to believe if it only happens for a second, at least in my case. I always thought the VTC was on the cam gear itself but I could be wrong. We used to have an old Ford farm truck with a staight 6 in it that had an oil pan leak. Every month at some point it would run dry of oil and start knocking pretty bad, we would drive it 5 miles to the gas station, knocking, put oil in it and the knocking would stop. This happened for like 200k miles until the truck was finally killed by drowning it in a lake... so I'm kind of skeptical of this issue causing any real damage. Would be nice to have more info or perspective on the issue :)
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I am going based off of information that I am getting from actual Honda Technicians that have worked hands-on with these vehicles replacing the exact parts we are talking about. I trust their judgement more than anyone who is making assumptions.

Your comparison is apples and oranges: Ford engines are not built to the same tolerances that Honda engines are, and Honda engines are designed around utilizing oil pressure for just about every function. If nearly every time you start the car you are starving part of it of oil during that key first few seconds when the most wear and tear is being done, I think eventually you are going to start damaging parts that should be oiled but are not. Which parts these are I am unsure of, and am still searching for more specific information. You are correct about the location of the VTC Actuator; Just look back at post #24 in this thread, the video shows very clearly where things are and how they function within that system.

Also, I just called my Service Adviser who confirmed that all Si's since 2006 have been using timing chains exclusively.
 
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PainlessCandy said:
I am going based off of information that I am getting from actual Honda Technicians that have worked hands-on with these vehicles replacing the exact parts we are talking about. I trust their judgement more than anyone who is making assumptions.

Your comparison is apples and oranges: Ford engines are not built to the same tolerances that Honda engines are, and Honda engines are designed around utilizing oil pressure for just about every function. If nearly every time you start the car you are starving part of it of oil during that key first few seconds when the most wear and tear is being done, I think eventually you are going to start damaging parts that should be oiled but are not. Which parts these are I am unsure of, and am still searching for more specific information. You are correct about the location of the VTC Actuator; Just look back at post #24 in this thread, the video shows very clearly where things are and how they function within that system.

Also, I just called my Service Adviser who confirmed that all Si's since 2006 have been using timing chains exclusively.
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Good bit of information. Thank you! So that leads me to ask how do we prevent this. And is this the type of damage that after 300k miles may cause something to break? I got the lifetime power train warranty so I don't think I have anything to worry about if it does break. But would like to know if there is anything to watch out for.
 
PainlessCandy said:
I am going based off of information that I am getting from actual Honda Technicians that have worked hands-on with these vehicles replacing the exact parts we are talking about. I trust their judgement more than anyone who is making assumptions.

Your comparison is apples and oranges: Ford engines are not built to the same tolerances that Honda engines are, and Honda engines are designed around utilizing oil pressure for just about every function. If nearly every time you start the car you are starving part of it of oil during that key first few seconds when the most wear and tear is being done, I think eventually you are going to start damaging parts that should be oiled but are not. Which parts these are I am unsure of, and am still searching for more specific information. You are correct about the location of the VTC Actuator; Just look back at post #24 in this thread, the video shows very clearly where things are and how they function within that system.

Also, I just called my Service Adviser who confirmed that all Si's since 2006 have been using timing chains exclusively.
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I stand corrected.
 
That is exactly what mine sounds like about 50% of the time. Sometimes worse, sometimes better; but that is a great average sound.
 
Nick USMC said:
This. A lesser version of this. It's started for the first time within the last 2 weeks. But it only happens periodically.
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This is what mine sounds like about 50% of the time. Sometimes it is more, sometimes less, but this is a great approximation.
 
Bulkybear said:
Good bit of information. Thank you! So that leads me to ask how do we prevent this. And is this the type of damage that after 300k miles may cause something to break? I got the lifetime power train warranty so I don't think I have anything to worry about if it does break. But would like to know if there is anything to watch out for.
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From what I have heard, the only sure damage going that long is the timing chain stretching and breaking. Certainly, this should not cause a major issue within the first 100k miles, but after that amount of mileage is all in the air.
The other oil starvation issue I have less information on, and cannot say which parts specifically would be affected. But my previous post was based on all the information I've acquired, and seeing that harmonic feedback is an issue with any engine running a timing chain I would say this is the most important issue at this time. But the idea is that any moving parts further down that oil-flow pathway will be damaged as well, and is what I have been told by Honda Tech's that have done this replacement.

I can't imagine that they wouldn't cover you under that warranty, but as far as prevention goes I have only seen one solution that actually works: the Oil Accumulator. It is a device that stores oil under pressure that can be released to resolve oil starvation problems in most engines. They are usually installed in track cars so that under extreme cornering forces, the oil sump doesn't stop pumping due to the oil being forced against the side of the pan instead of the bottom where it usually is. It effectively forces oil into the Actuator before starting the engine to prevent this rattle from happening. This solution does not fix the faulty Actuator, but creates a supplement that would fix the problem every time.

I have evidence of one ex-Honda tech who is still working as a mechanic who has been installing Oil Accumulators on older Accords and CR-V's that share our same engine, but he has not been very helpful with specifics.
 
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Robotaz said:
Only 30 years of building cars and a few engineering degrees. Good enough for me. Do what you want, bud.
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So the answer is no then?

Your supposed experience and degrees are not quantifiable via your mere words on a forum. Links to evidence is. Anybody that has multiple degrees would understand this concept.
 
PainlessCandy said:
Here is a thread all about it so you can educate yourself @Robotaz : http://honda-tech.com/honda-civic-2006-current-79/oil-filters-honda-2889877/
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LOL!

Some day if I have a self-confidence problem when I'm dying in a nursing home I'll come back to address you on that.

This forum. You guys are kids. It's funny to read. It really is. It's sad though that people (other clueless kids) read your hilariously clueless opinions and form their own.

To the smart people who didn't grow up in Internet circle jerks, get a shop manual and read it. Do your own work. Don't listen to anyone. Use common sense.
 
squiggy said:
So the answer is no then?

Your supposed experience and degrees are not quantifiable via your mere words on a forum. Links to evidence is. Anybody that has multiple degrees would understand this concept.
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Links to evidence? I didn't get an education on the Internet little buddy.
 
Robotaz said:
Links to evidence? I didn't get an education on the Internet little buddy.
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So, you are saying you don't know how to do proper research online. There is plenty of verifiable and quantifiable information online...unless my multiple degrees from a reputable and well regarded university that required me to do considerable amounts of research were earned from one that has lied to me.

You come on here, attack us, and, call us kids. Yet, you fail to realize that a large majority of us are not kids and are very knowledgable. If someone asks us to justify our statements, we will point them in a direction for verification. There are also many members here that are engineers and when asked will go into great depth in their explanations and not simply say take them at their word.
 
Robotaz said:
Only 30 years of building cars and a few engineering degrees.
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Degrees don't mean anything without being able to apply them, and experience is worthless if you can't relay what you have learned to other people.

You could have spent 30 years building Alfa Romeo's.

Common sense tells me that inferior materials make for a poor quality part, which for some reason is the opposite of what you are trying to tell us.
 
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Sounds to me like @Robotaz is just very narrow minded which is a shame.
I would think if someone has 30 years of experience at something he would have some useful information to share with the group based on the years of experience but you need to back up what you are saying with some type of evidence or reasoning.
Just saying "because I said so" is not a good reason BTW.
 
Update: Just got a call from my dealership. I am taking my car back for them to reproduce the noise a THIRD time, this time with the District Service Manager there in person. This makes my Service Adviser, the dealer Service Manager, and two techs who have confirmed the noise. I am not sure what they want to do with it after that, but as soon as I know I will post another update. I feel like the service rep at Honda Corp is taking care of this quite diligently, and that at least gives me some reassurance.
 
Final Update: I just got off the phone with Kristen, the rep who has been handling my case at American Honda Corp. She confirmed that Honda is working on a new improved part to replace bad VTC Actuators. She could not give me any kind of time frame for the release of this part, or any guarantees that I will be notified when the part is released (she asked me to check back with the dealership every so often to see if it has been released).
The last time I took it in, they were unable to recreate the noise, so they deemed the part not defective; however I was offered to have the part replaced now with another of the same part as a gesture of good will. I declined, seeing how many people have had theirs replaced and still have the same problem.

When I find confirmation that a new part has been released, I will be back here to alert the internet. Until then, if anyone has any other information on confirmed damage being done, on what lies further down that oil flow pathway, or on other fixes including the installation of an oil accumulator, please respond here or PM me. I am seriously considering installing an oil accumulator.
 
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