Coolant Bypass

Yes, the coolant is a heat exchanger. It does prevent the engine from overheating by absorbing the heat. The coolant keeps the engine in a maintained temperature. It is still very hot, but maintained so the engine would not reach a critical temperature. The only problem is, hot coolant coming from the engine goes through the tb. Not coolant coming from the radiator. So the engine temp from the coolant goes through the tb keeping it almost as hot as the engine (temp from air + temp from hot coolant). Keep in mind, coolant gets as hot as 200 degrees Fahrenheit. Maybe much more. It would definitely be a significant change if the coolant connection is disconnected from the TB bc the engine bay temp is the only concern for increased temperature.
 
I decided not to go through with the bypass due to ascetics. It would kill me to see a bypassed hose in my car lol. I see them all the time at work and it seems not right
 
beto2250 said:
I decided not to go through with the bypass due to ascetics. It would kill me to see a bypassed hose in my car lol. I see them all the time at work and it seems not right
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Unless you plug them. Lol. I have pics on page 3.
 
Yeah I just think the theoretical benefits are just not worth the hassle. If there was some documented proof that this had any effect at all, I'd consider it. Has anyone disassembled the TB to see how the coolant flows through it? Temperature readings of the throttle plate with it connected and bypassed?
 
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Has anyone who is questioning the benifits actually run an IAT gauge against their car? I have. It makes a difference. Even on a 110 degree day when idling in stop and go traffic you will never see IAT's anywhere close to coolant temps. With the bypass they will drop by 10-20 degrees. The engine coolant DOES NOT COOL the throttle body down... It functions similar to a heat riser from the old carburated days, it helps smooth idle while the engine is warming up reducing unburnt fuel in the process. To each his own though, if you don't want to do it, don't do it. However if those opposed have never tried it, or measured it, why are there so many replies trying to talk others out of trying it? Rant off, going to install my Strut King Leather shift boot.

Kirk
 
CappyKD said:
...it helps smooth idle while the engine is warming up reducing unburnt fuel in the process...
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Thanks. That's just what I needed to hear to not do it. Not trying to start an argument or change anyone's mind but it seems the reasons to do it are not beneficial enough to justify doing this. If there was more evidence other than "just because" then I'd consider it like I said but like others stated, the air is flowing through the TB way too fast for it to have a measurable difference in performance. This just seems as helpful as a giant spoiler on the back of a front-wheel drive car.
 
Mephist0 said:
Thanks. That's just what I needed to hear to not do it. Not trying to start an argument or change anyone's mind but it seems the reasons to do it are not beneficial enough to justify doing this. If there was more evidence other than "just because" then I'd consider it like I said but like others stated, the air is flowing through the TB way too fast for it to have a measurable difference in performance. This just seems as helpful as a giant spoiler on the back of a front-wheel drive car.
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.....but what if the spoiler is red?
 
Mephist0 said:
Thanks. That's just what I needed to hear to not do it. Not trying to start an argument or change anyone's mind but it seems the reasons to do it are not beneficial enough to justify doing this. If there was more evidence other than "just because" then I'd consider it like I said but like others stated, the air is flowing through the TB way too fast for it to have a measurable difference in performance. This just seems as helpful as a giant spoiler on the back of a front-wheel drive car.
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Umm, 20 degree IAT drops are not "just because" That is the air measurement, not the temp of the TB. Hence the reason Comp Tech recommends and sells insulator gaskets from the head to IM, to drop IAT. Colder air makes more power, this is also a fact, not a "just because". As I said earlier do whatever you want to your car, but please stop debating the benefits of something you have never tried, measured or apparently grasp the concept of. There is nothing wrong with a healthy debate, but claiming there is no evidence, when I just posted it, does not lead to a healthy debate, nor does bringing up unrelated things like rear wings on FWD.

Kirk
 
I thought I already posted a reason. Lol.
Dar-Dar said:
Probably better lap times for circuit racing. It keeps the TB from overheating.

One of the main points of the coolant going to the throttle body is to keep it warm during the winter or colder conditions so it would not freeze up and fail. Many car manufacturers use this method because they build every car so they can work on different conditions. But for people who live in warmer areas have to deal with the TB getting too hot resulting a 'low level' heat stroke. I would do the bypass if I'm circuit racing, dd'ing during the summer, or when the temperature is above freezing.
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CappyKD said:
Umm, 20 degree IAT drops are not "just because" That is the air measurement, not the temp of the TB. Hence the reason Comp Tech recommends and sells insulator gaskets from the head to IM, to drop IAT. Colder air makes more power, this is also a fact, not a "just because". As I said earlier do whatever you want to your car, but please stop debating the benefits of something you have never tried, measured or apparently grasp the concept of. There is nothing wrong with a healthy debate, but claiming there is no evidence, when I just posted it, does not lead to a healthy debate, nor does bringing up unrelated things like rear wings on FWD.

Kirk
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Oh I grasp it just fine thanks (don't recall me insulting your intelligence but whatever) but I need something more substantial than 20 degrees. Now if you had a dyno chart showing before and after and it had more than just 1 or 2 more HP then okay. Now insulator gaskets for the manifold I can see the reason for because the last thing you want is the heat of the engine to bleed over and heat up the manifold which could lead to dangerous situations of predetonation but even then it would have to be in hard-driving situations like auto-cross.

Besides it's not what IAT's you're seeing that matter as much as the IAT's the ECU is seeing and since that is read before the TB, it can't compensate by adding more fuel. Tell me, have you also measured your AFR before and after? I tend to think Honda Engineers factored in the IATs from the coolant passing through the TB and programmed the ECU accordingly. It's not colder air that makes more power, it's more air AND more fuel. Colder(denser) air not expected by the MAF could be leaning out the AFR.
 
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Mephist0 said:
Oh I grasp it just fine thanks (don't recall me insulting your intelligence but whatever) but I need something more substantial than 20 degrees. Now if you had a dyno chart showing before and after and it had more than just 1 or 2 more HP then okay.
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I'll start by saying that I was not intending to question your intelligence, I'm sorry if you took it that way.

I do take issue with the fact that a few posts ago, you called the mod "just because" then I post measured IAT temp readings, and you procede to try to agrue what impact the temps have on power. So, here are a few links including one dyno chart, the first link is to Hondata. Please read both paragraphs at the bottom.

http://www.hondata.com/heatshieldgasket.html

Hmm, so Honda Engineers bypassed all sources of hot coolant to the intake / TB on Type R motors. I wonder why they would do that? Hondata also gives exact IAT temperature drop to power increase numbers. I'm sure you will claim it's all the intake to head gasket that they sell, if that were true, why does Hondata bypass the IAC and TB coolant lines too as part of the install process?

http://www.ws6.com/mod-8.htm

Different motor but roughly a 10% gain. I'm not huge on the lack of information with his testing procedure, but the gains are clear as day.

So even if you are correct in your 1-2 HP numbers above, for the cost of about 50 cents, if you live in a warm / hot climate, this is a worthwhile MOD, not a "Just Because". (To most people that is, some will debate it and ignore the facts regardless of how they are presented.)

There is much more info available via google and bing, you can search just like I did. It's not up to me to convince you. You are chiming in on someone elses thread and arguing the validity of their post and mod. Why don't you provide some proof that it does nothing?

Mephist0 said:
Now insulator gaskets for the manifold I can see the reason for because the last thing you want is the heat of the engine to bleed over and heat up the manifold which could lead to dangerous situations of predetonation but even then it would have to be in hard-driving situations like auto-cross.
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Again, please read the Hondata paragraphs, this is NOT about predetonation or autocross, it's about colder denser air making more power.

Mephist0 said:
Besides it's not what IAT's you're seeing that matter as much as the IAT's the ECU is seeing and since that is read before the TB, it can't compensate by adding more fuel.
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Wrong again, I am reading the temps FROM THE ECU, which means the ECU can see the decreased temps and add more fuel if warranted based on many other parameters programmed into it. (Engine RPM, Engine load, Crank Sensor, Cam Sensor, Engine Coolant Temp Sensor, Throttle Position Sensor, the first O2 Sensor, etc.)

Mephist0 said:
Tell me, have you also measured your AFR before and after? I tend to think Honda Engineers factored in the IATs from the coolant passing through the TB and programmed the ECU accordingly. It's not colder air that makes more power, it's more air AND more fuel. Colder(denser) air not expected by the MAF could be leaning out the AFR.
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Ah yes the old stand by, Honda Engineers factored "That" in. I'll address this first, Honda Engineers also designed the new rings for the 9th Gen Si's, only they screwed up and the design they used for the first 7000-8000, '12 Si vehicles built, (coupes and sedans) did not seal / wipe oil properly hence the TSB for excessive oil consumption and the replacement of those rings with the Older Part number from the Acura TSX 2.4s. For that matter, there are numerous other TSB's as well depending on VIN.

How could the colder air not be expected by the MAF? The IAT is integrated into the MAF, they are being measured at the exact same location in the intake tract?

I'm done debating with someone who refuses to look beyond their own myopic opinion. You're right and everyone who has ever bypassed is wrong. So why don't you start another thread titled Coolant Bypass Mod is "Just Because" and go argue your opinion there. Since you have not posted a single fact or measurement of your own, you are just trolling this thread. If you do feel the need to continue to argue without posting evidence supporting you claims why don't you tell us your expertise / backround? I work at a company that designs Fuel systems for GM, Toyota, Mazda, BMZ, Daimler, VW, and many others. We also have one of only two full CARB certified emissions DYNOs in the area. Callaway, TRD, Roush, and many others bring their parts and vehicles to us for testing to get CARB exemptions.

Kirk
 
For the record lets also talk about your ridiculous rear spoiler claim as well. A factory installed large spoiler on a FWD car DOES have a purpose, when done in conjunction with wind tunnel testing and a matching frontend downforce increase. (As the factory does it.) It is to increase traction at high speed. In anything other than a straight line race, more traction equals better stability. (Hmmm, I wonder why all of the highest end, factory, FWD Honda / Acuras have large rear spoilers?) Next time please clarify your comments to say [aftermarket] giant rear spoiler, in which case you would be correct, that not only does it not help, but it will actually decrease handling without a carefully matched front down force increase as well.

Kirk
 
Why should I post evidence to support that it isn't worthwhile when you keep talking about manifold gaskets and presenting dyno graphs for V8 cars that use MAP sensors? You seem to be taking obvious offense to someone challenging your "authority" on all things cars when you even agree that this will at best give 1-2HP. Is that seriously it? Since no two dyno pulls are exactly the same, again why should I bother? The only thing you posted to support such claims is that you read the temps from the ECU something you failed to mention before. I brought up the MAF because it's before the TB so how in the world can it measure the air temps after the TB? There's no doubt that this mod could be beneficial to some applications but my point is about this application, the MAF-sensor using K24Z7 but since you have posted NOTHING about this specific application I'm out. Go have your virtual argument somewhere else. It's not my place to provide evidence that it doesn't work (I never said it wouldn't); I simply said how, with this car, would it make a worthwhile (1HP is not worthwhile) difference? If you run a dyno, stick your car on the dyno and tell us! I'll continue to listen to Cobb, a world-renowned shop who happens to be local to me.
 
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Well, you guys both know more than me about this if that's any consolation. :popcorn:
 
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Mephist0 said:
Why should I post evidence to support that it isn't worthwhile when you keep talking about manifold gaskets and presenting dyno graphs for V8 cars that use MAP sensors? You seem to be taking obvious offense to someone challenging your "authority" on all things cars when you even agree that this will at best give 1-2HP. Is that seriously it? Since no two dyno pulls are exactly the same, again why should I bother? The only thing you posted to support such claims is that you read the temps from the ECU something you failed to mention before. I brought up the MAF because it's before the TB so how in the world can it measure the air temps after the TB? There's no doubt that this mod could be beneficial to some applications but my point is about this application, the MAF-sensor using K24Z7 but since you have posted NOTHING about this specific application I'm out. Go have your virtual argument somewhere else. It's not my place to provide evidence that it doesn't work (I never said it wouldn't); I simply said how, with this car, would it make a worthwhile (1HP is not worthwhile) difference? If you run a dyno, stick your car on the dyno and tell us! I'll continue to listen to Cobb, a world-renowned shop who happens to be local to me.
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Nobody on this forum would consider 2HP (If that is the number) for 50 cents or less to be "Just Because" other than you. I am no authority at all, I've never claimed to be, however I have discussed this with numerous engineers who actually write ECU programming from scratch. Clearly neither are you an "authority" which is why you should stop hopping into other peoples threads (It's not even my thread, but it's rude to jump into someone elses thread and bash their mod.) and commmenting how their mods are "just because" and like "giant rear spoilers on FWD cars".

Hmm, why is it that Skunk Throttle bodies for the K20Z3 eliminate the water passages? Or is this not a close enough example to our motor?

Our dyno is busy constantly I only wish I could get access.

You can listen to Cobb the world renowned TURBO tuning shop near you. I'll listen to Hondata the world renowned HONDA NA tunng shop near me. Oh wait, we are talking about NA Honda's right? BTW, With my 255 WHP Bugeye WRX wagon, I went with the COBB way for most things, hence the reason I still ran the factory airbox.

Kirk
 
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For the record I never "bashed" anything as you claim and it's more than a 50 cent mod as well because I value my time and I make 50 cents in the amount of time it takes me to sneeze but doing this mod takes longer than that. I also claimed to be no authority either, just a consumer with a bit more knowledge than the average one. It's also not the job of the consumer to prove the salesman wrong but the job of the salesman to prove he's right without insulting the consumer (epic fail there). And please stop hanging on to meaningless little talking points of mine while dancing around the serious questions because when anything that's been done for years without being challenged at all, it is "just because". So no, it's not worthwhile for a gain that's barely measurable at the expense of possible fuel economy that may end up costing me more in the end since I drive 1,200 miles/week. Good day sir.
 
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Mephist0 said:
For the record I never "bashed" anything as you claim and it's more than a 50 cent mod as well because I value my time and I make 50 cents in the amount of time it takes me to sneeze but doing this mod takes longer than that. I also claimed to be no authority either, just a consumer with a bit more knowledge than the average one. It's also not the job of the consumer to prove the salesman wrong but the job of the salesman to prove he's right without insulting the consumer (epic fail there). And please stop hanging on to meaningless little talking points of mine while dancing around the serious questions because when anything that's been done for years without being challenged at all, it is "just because". So no, it's not worthwhile for a gain that's barely measurable at the expense of possible fuel economy that may end up costing me more in the end since I drive 1,200 miles/week. Good day sir.
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Calling someones mod "just because" and like "Giant wings on fwd cars" is BASHING. No one cares how fast you make 50 cents, figures you'd have to go there. The time you have spent debating, you could have done the mod and tried it out for yourself, so spare me the whole "I value my time".

I suppose you didn't bother to read this post? It's posts number 29 and 32 in this thread.

Coolant Bypass[/URL]

It addressed your questions earlier including fuel economy. In case you don't know VitViper is a VERY accomplished tuner for the K20Z3 and K24Z7 and his comments are directly related to our cars.

I said it too many posts ago, do whatever you want to or not to your car.

No need to debate the benefits of doing so with those that have, when you have no facts or evidence to back up your theory, other than Cobb's opinion (On a completely different engine).

And a good day to you as well sir!

Kirk
 
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