Changing manual transmission fluid

Discussion in 'Mechanical Problems & Technical Chat' started by Bruce Bartlow, Sep 29, 2012.

  1. 07TLX
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    07TLX Supporting Member

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    I run Mobil 1 Super 5000 conventional motor oil and a Mobil 1 filter.... 5w-20 in my LX and do changes at 5-6 thousand miles and at 140k miles when I tested it the motor is a clean as a car with 50k miles.

    As for transmission I have heard good things about Amsoil and I prefer Redline
     
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  2. Keens

    Keens Well-Known Member

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    Also, what about the Royal Purple 0w-20 oil? In my limited experience in lubricant prices, $7.86 per quart from Amazon sounds pretty good for the rave reviews the stuff is getting.
     
  3. Bruce Bartlow

    Bruce Bartlow Late apex everything

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  4. Bruce Bartlow

    Bruce Bartlow Late apex everything

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    __________________
    Royal Purple... known for lots of extreme pressure agents. That means fine for racing... but oil doesn't last very long with lots of additives.
     
  5. Bruce Bartlow

    Bruce Bartlow Late apex everything

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    From Wikipedia:

    PAO[edit]
    API Group IV Polyalphaolefins, 100% Synthetic chemical compound. Specific type of olefin (organic) that is used as a base stock in some synthetic lubricants. poly-alpha-olefin (or poly-α-olefin, abbreviated as PAO), is a polymer made by polymerizing an alpha-olefin. An alpha-olefin (or α-olefin) is an alkene where the carbon-carbon double bond starts at the α-carbon atom, i.e. the double bond is between the #1 and #2 carbons in the molecule. AMSOIL introduced the first API/SAE approved 100% synthetic motor oil in 1972. [1]

    Ester[edit]
    API Group V Esters are 100% Synthetic chemical compounds consisting of a carbonyl adjacent to an ether linkage. They are derived by reacting an oxoacid with a hydroxyl compound such as an alcohol or phenol. Esters are usually derived from an inorganic acid or organic acid in which at least one -OH (hydroxyl) group is replaced by an -O-alkyl (alkoxy) group, and most commonly from carboxylic acids and alcohols. That is, esters are formed by condensing an acid with an alcohol.

    Many chemically different "esters" due to their usually excellent lubricity are used for various reasons as either "additives" or "base stocks" for lubricants. [1]
     
  6. Bruce Bartlow

    Bruce Bartlow Late apex everything

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    Note on Amsoil: Like others they offer different grades of synthetics and semi-synthetics. Their best oil used to carry a warranty of 35,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first. That has been reduced to 25,000 miles or one year.... and only 1/2 that (12,500 miles) if used "under severe" driving conditions like stop and go, dusty conditions, modified engines (FlashPro?!!) etc etc etc. You know the drill... lots of weasel words to get out of the warranty. Still, does anybody else offer a warranty? Not that I know of.

    For reasons detailed elsewhere, I am not the Amsoil fan I used to be. And unlike other dealers I spent an entire week (and $1,000) at their corporate headquarters for training. It was at that point the bubble burst. But still, their oil is generally above average... just buy the best one they make if you want to stretch the drain intervals to 10,000+ miles. Those Mobil 1 filters are excellent, by the way... as are the Amsoil filters, made by Donaldson i think.

    There is also Liqui Moly made in Germany.... head over to www.bobistheoilguy.com for detailed discussions and test results on that and a variety of other oils:

    http://www.liqui-moly.com/liquimoly/web.nsf/id/pa_eng_home.html
     
  7. Keens

    Keens Well-Known Member

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    Great info, thanks. I am looking hard at the Amsoil signature 0w-20, I can pick it up at a good price through a friend who is an amsoil dealer. Any recommendations for or against? How about you just tell me what to do, eh? I figured since you have done all of this research, you are using the best in your "sick intentions" car. LOL

    Edit: I guess we posted at the same time. Thanks for all of your help.
     
  8. Bruce Bartlow

    Bruce Bartlow Late apex everything

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    ___________________
    You see, here's a guy -- @07TLX -- who beats the hell out of his car on CONVENTIONAL OIL... and it's fine. Have you seen those letters on the oil container... SE, SF, SG, etc, etc? Each new letter in that sequence represents an improvement -- higher standards from the API. That means today's non-synthetic oils are much better than they used to be... and they're fine for 3,000/4,000... maybe even 6000/7,000 miles, depending. The test results speak for themselves.

    That said, engines run cooler on synthetics, the oils take longer to oxidize and are much more resistant to varnish buildup. Personally I use synthetics for three reasons:

    1.) For all intents, I race the car. At least sometimes.

    2.) With two kids always ready for my leftovers, I need to keep cars running a very long time. 250,000 miles is typical.

    3.) The longer drain intervals make them only slightly more expensive than regular oils.
     
  9. 07TLX
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    07TLX Supporting Member

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    Blackstone said I could go 10,000 miles on the oil if I choose too, I prefer to change it 5-7 thousand miles to be safe. The motor gets a bit noisy above 7k miles.

    I have never had the car get above 200 degrees and it normally operates at 180-190 degrees even with me beating it.

    I also run 5qts of oil as well and I always pre fill my filter. I have never burned a drop of oil in the life if the car and as Bruce said I have beat the hell outta my car.

    I am currently at 154,000 miles and have been running this setup for 104,000 miles, the first 50k was all Honda fluid and changing your transmission fluid when you changed your oil was getting old and expensive.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  10. Bruce Bartlow

    Bruce Bartlow Late apex everything

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    ________________
    First of all, with 15,000 miles on that tranny I'd get that changed right away. But for the motor oil I'm not sure it matters which brand..as they all have to meet API regulations. (Except Amsoil... oddly enough, they don't like paying for the API license)

    If you don't mind being a Guinea Pig why don't you try the following:

    1. Pick up 5 qts of WalMart generic 5w-20.... or whatever regular oil you want. Drive for 4,000 - 5,000 miles.
    2. Send in a lab sample. Now you have your baseline.... and the minimum you should expect. Now let's see if spending more gets you more... because for many drivers i'm not sure it does.
    3. Repeat with Amsoil Signature Series 0w-20. Change after 6,000 miles and test. Do wear metals decline? Does the oil last longer (oxidation, TBN, etc) Does fuel economy and/or power increase?
    4. Repeat #3 and run for 8,000 miles. Or go to 8,000 immediately if driving longer distances.
    5. Repeat and run for 10,000 miles (and beyond) or until the lab results dictate otherwise.... but no more than 25,000 miles in a single year. Keep in mind filters need to still be changed according to their own lifespan. Even Amsoil filters are only rated to 15,000 miles for the SI.

    The Blackstone technicians will often provide an actual recommendation based on your test results.

    Alternatives to Amsoil. Pennzoil has their new "ultra" synthetic which looks promising. Very limited deposit formation. Liqui Moly (some call it LM) has their state of the art "Longlife PLUS"... about $15.00/qt. Outstanding oil. On the super affordable end -- Mobil 1 is fine... but wouldn't recommend it for more than 5,000 (7,500 MAX) miles. But it's dirt cheap, often on sale at Costco for $4.50/qt... i.e., about $26.00 for 6. I use M1 for 3,000 miles... and no more than 5,000 MAX in the family car. But that's just me. Test results indicate most drivers can use it longer.
     
  11. Bruce Bartlow

    Bruce Bartlow Late apex everything

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    Here's an interesting Oil Analyzers report I came across. A few things of note:

    1.) There was an impressive 20,000 miles on this diesel Amsoil.
    2.) According to the notes, user added something not found in the virgin sample.
    3.) While there was excessive oxidation ...very possibly from whatever the user added (as this messes with an oil's delicate formulation)
    Wear metals were virtually nonexistent.
     

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  12. Keens

    Keens Well-Known Member

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    That's interesting. There is so much conflicting evidence in this field. Reading on BITOG seems like a war, no one agrees.

    I'd really like to help the cause but I'm not sure I want to be the guinea pig.. not out of any selfish mindset, just worried about using an oil that the vehicle doesn't call for. I know nothing about this kind of stuff, I just want to get a product great for my engine. I will change the transmission fluid first due to mileage, then oil. MM says 30% now, I will probably wait another 500mi. or so.
     
  13. Bruce Bartlow

    Bruce Bartlow Late apex everything

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    Would you use oil that's more than 50 years old?
    Great story by Blackstone
     

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  14. webby
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    what about the people running 10k miles or more and blackstone saying the oil was fine - go longer -

    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2039741
    here is an 05 civic si with a 10k mile interval change on penzoil platinum.

    another 10k mile interval
    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1710108
    penzoil platinum

    Mobil 1 5w20 9300 miles Honda Civic Si K20A3
    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=818480&fpart=1

    0w-20 - 02 Honda Civic Si K20A3, 10k miles
    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=240214&page=1
     
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  15. Keens

    Keens Well-Known Member

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    How about M1 0W-20 AFE? I get that stuff for pretty cheap too.

    If I decide to go this route, I will send in a lab test at 7000. After, I will run Amsoil signature 0w-20. Lab test. See if I get any difference.. any other ideas?
     
  16. Bruce Bartlow

    Bruce Bartlow Late apex everything

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    You're absolutely right, nobody agrees at BITOG. But the test results tell us what we've always known: Change your oil at regular intervals (although that's different for everybody) and your engine will have a long, happy life. Besides, how many engine failures do we really see these days? Hardly any. The question is whether the engines last -- trouble free -- 200,000 miles (almost anyone can do that) or 400,000 miles... which may not even be desirable anymore. The field of tribology, in my view, is better suited for the industrial world of multi-million dollar pieces of equipment. That's where a $20.00 oil analysis can save you a million bucks in lost production over a weekend. Sometimes I think we debate on how to prolong engine life when we'll only be selling the car at 100,000 miles anyway.

    But, hey, follow these basic guidelines and you'll be happy: If you use regular oil or a cheap synthetic (M1) I'd recommend 3,000 miles until you know from analysis that more miles are okay. I'm guessing 5,000+ is where you'll end up. If you don't mind spending extra try the better stuff (Amsoil, etc) and keep it in there longer, like around 10,000 miles. If you don't keep the better oils in longer, why spend the extra money? Naturally the harder you drive, the more short trips, the more idling, etc, etc, the more you should change it. Only by doing a couple UOA's (used oil analysis) can really you determine what's best in your situation.

    Sorry, no easy answers from me!
     
  17. Bruce Bartlow

    Bruce Bartlow Late apex everything

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    ______________________________________
    Totally agree!

    I knew of a trucker who changed only his two bypass filters once a year, that's it. (Each one required 2 qts of make up oil) Otherwise, he kept the same oil running for 432,000 miles. A highly documented case study. A PeterBuilt rep eventually tore the engine down at 600,000 +. The engine measurements were on a par with a 70,000 mile engine. You see, that is what's possible.
     
  18. Bruce Bartlow

    Bruce Bartlow Late apex everything

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    Looks like JoefromPA also used Amsoil SSO 0w-30 before this Pennzoil run. He did 14,000 and 16,000 miles on the Amsoil, no problem. Also like the last example which discusses 20w versus 30w oils.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  19. Bruce Bartlow

    Bruce Bartlow Late apex everything

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    Just to clarify... is this EXACTLY how you found it.... and if so, what tipped you off that something was wrong... shifting, noise... or only the lab results?
     
  20. 07TLX
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    07TLX Supporting Member

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    I heard a strange noise, almost sounded like the throwout bearing was going bad but I knew it was new I did the clutch about 20k miles earlier. Decided to change the fluid and see what that did and send in a sample to be analyzed and the results told me higher iron count then normal. Found a good shop and had them look at it, the owner is a Honda master tech and he recognized the noise and I had it fixed, good thing the owner is the one who worked on my car.
     
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