CloudSpoon
Well-Known Member
I'm also curious about this because I read this article and am currently living by these words. Lol. I refuse to buy a camber kit until I see facts that camber is the culprit.
Photos Official Lowered Sedan Pics Thread.. :)
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Toe definitely eats tires. That is a true statement. Running negative camber isn't going to eat a set of tires in a month or anything. That isn't the reason for me commenting on your post. I told you that you'd need camber bolts or you'd need to roll your fenders/raise your coils to fix your rubbing issue. You'll notice in that thread he even mentions he had extra wear on the inside of his tires. That is to be expected if you don't fix your camber. It's crazy to think that people running negative camber believe they won't wear the inside edge of their tires faster than the outside edge when a bunch of people aren't even touching on the outside edge. Gee, I wonder what's going to wear out the fastest.
CloudSpoon
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I know you weren't directly responding to me, but I'd like your input/$0.02 on not buying a camber bolt or camber arms.. Because his article was about the natural camber from a drop, not excessive/non-functional camber. Naturally anything other than 0 will wear unevenly, positive or negative, but my curiosity was if the wear would ever become visually or functionally apparent(as in ruined tires), or if I would ever be told I couldn't rotate my tires due to excessive inner wear without any new camber adjustment parts.
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The fronts will stay close to 0 degrees when lowering. The rear will gain negative the lower you go. Here is a skunk2 spring alignment.
Factory range is up to .4 to 1.4 degrees in the rear. So it's more than double outside the factory spec at around 2" in drop. So someone dropped 4 inches is going to have more inside wear than someone dropped an inch. It's not like it's scrubbing tires with toe, but you will wear tread on the inside before the outside. I've seen countless used tires from lowered cars for sale, and you can always see wear differences from the inside to the outside tread. The inside might be close to a wear bar, and the outside has more depth. If you're close to 0 degrees up front, you can keep rotating your tires from the rear to try and increase their life.
Factory range is up to .4 to 1.4 degrees in the rear. So it's more than double outside the factory spec at around 2" in drop. So someone dropped 4 inches is going to have more inside wear than someone dropped an inch. It's not like it's scrubbing tires with toe, but you will wear tread on the inside before the outside. I've seen countless used tires from lowered cars for sale, and you can always see wear differences from the inside to the outside tread. The inside might be close to a wear bar, and the outside has more depth. If you're close to 0 degrees up front, you can keep rotating your tires from the rear to try and increase their life.
Michal006
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alex.chartrebouchard
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Eibach 
A. G. Pym
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Excellent. I absolutely love the simplicity. This is how you help give Honda a good name. Keep it up.
xXFlash21Xx
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You guys are missing a huge difference between older civics and newer civics. Older Civics have a dual A-arm or double wishbone suspension setup in the front and "new" Civics have a macpherson strut setup. These suspensions are completely different and behave in completely different ways especially when you are talking about lowering the car either through springs or coil overs. The rear suspension on the newer cars is also a multi-link which behaves differently than a strut or double wishbone. The guy specifically mentions "newer" Civics in his article as being the 96-00 models. If thats the newest ones he's writing about you need to reconsider all the information in that article.
Most of us here recommend parts that work for your car for a reason. If you would like to cite 6 year old articles for 20 year old cars and live by it, do so. Don't be surprised that things don't work out when you've ignored glaring differences between the models. "Camber kits" that they reference were often a package deal including upper/lower A-arms with possibly adjustable ball joints and toe adjustment rods. There were various ways of modifying the older suspension setups.
TL;DR :You cannot read an article about a totally different type of suspension on a 15-20 year old Civic and expect the information to translate over into the newer cars.
2012+ Civics
Front suspension: Camber challenged Macpherson Strut design. Camber/caster is not adjustable from the factory, only toe. To adjust camber in the front you need to buy camber bolts. They are cheap and changing the alignment is one of the most effective ways to change the handling characteristics of the car. The car gains no negative camber under compression or lowering in the front
Rear suspension: A multi-link setup with non-adjustable camber from the factory. Only toe is adjustable. The multi link setup gains appreciable negative camber under load and from lowering. The rear camber can be adjusted by purchasing aftermarket "camber arms" which is what most people now refer to as "camber kits."
Toe eats tires much worse than camber but if you are only puttering around town running over -2 degrees of camber will visibly wear your tires and shorten their life. The guy claiming to run -4 degrees of camber in that article only says that he runs -4 on the front and makes no mention of his rear camber setting. It could be 0. If so, rotating tires regularly will extend their life despite such an extreme number.
Factory alignment specs are there for a reason. They provide a decent balance of handling and tire wear that most of the general, non-enthusiast, non-performance driving public would accept.
Run -4 degrees of camber and tell me your tires don't look like this on the inside shoulders after a few thousand miles. This tire was run at -2.5, camber does wear tires especially if it is far out of factory spec.
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CloudSpoon
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I appreciate the info/facts. I wasn't sure how a different suspension setup changed things, I just thought he meant that as long as you didn't INCREASE the camber past what the drop naturally gave you, you *should* be fine. I guess I should look into some camber kits. I only didn't want to buy one because of that article. No one had explained it to me like that though.You guys are missing a huge difference between older civics and newer civics. Older Civics have a dual A-arm or double wishbone suspension setup in the front and "new" Civics have a macpherson strut setup. These suspensions are completely different and behave in completely different ways especially when you are talking about lowering the car either through springs or coil overs. The rear suspension on the newer cars is also a multi-link which behaves differently than a strut or double wishbone. The guy specifically mentions "newer" Civics in his article as being the 96-00 models. If thats the newest ones he's writing about you need to reconsider all the information in that article.
Most of us here recommend parts that work for your car for a reason. If you would like to cite 6 year old articles for 20 year old cars and live by it, do so. Don't be surprised that things don't work out when you've ignored glaring differences between the models. "Camber kits" that they reference were often a package deal including upper/lower A-arms with possibly adjustable ball joints and toe adjustment rods. There were various ways of modifying the older suspension setups.
TL;DR :You cannot read an article about a totally different type of suspension on a 15-20 year old Civic and expect the information to translate over into the newer cars.
2012+ Civics
Front suspension: Camber challenged Macpherson Strut design. Camber/caster is not adjustable from the factory, only toe. To adjust camber in the front you need to buy camber bolts. They are cheap and changing the alignment is one of the most effective ways to change the handling characteristics of the car. The car gains no negative camber under compression or lowering in the front
Rear suspension: A multi-link setup with non-adjustable camber from the factory. Only toe is adjustable. The multi link setup gains appreciable negative camber under load and from lowering. The rear camber can be adjusted by purchasing aftermarket "camber arms" which is what most people now refer to as "camber kits."
Toe eats tires much worse than camber but if you are only puttering around town running over -2 degrees of camber will visibly wear your tires and shorten their life. The guy claiming to run -4 degrees of camber in that article only says that he runs -4 on the front and makes no mention of his rear camber setting. It could be 0. If so, rotating tires regularly will extend their life despite such an extreme number.
Factory alignment specs are there for a reason. They provide a decent balance of handling and tire wear that most of the general, non-enthusiast, non-performance driving public would accept.
Run -4 degrees of camber and tell me your tires don't look like this on the inside shoulders after a few thousand miles. This tire was run at -2.5, camber does wear tires especially if it is far out of factory spec.
CloudSpoon
Well-Known Member
Also, I'm now concerned because I just drove a 3,000 mile trip after just an alignment. 
FeelinDrewzy
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What would u say is a good spring rate to go w/ so u won't feel any roll?
FeelinDrewzy
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By the way I have a 2013 Si
As far as camber goes for lowering: Get your springs/coils on and get an alignment to set the toe as close to 0 as possible. Unless you're tracking your car & know why you want toe in/out. Toe will eat your tires quickly. For camber - check the numbers with your initial alignment. If you're happy with them then leave it alone. I personally would not run over -2 degrees on a DD car just because of wear. Camber arms in the rear can be used to reduce the amount of neg camber gained from lowering and get it back into factory spec.
If you want a performance alignment, you should look into getting at least one set of camber bolts for the front and camber arms for the rear. More front camber and less rear will help with handling a ton. The cars are setup to understeer from the factory and they definitely do. Running a bit more negative up front will help reduce this. A street performance alignment would be somewhere between -1 and -1.5 degrees in the front and about the same in the rear.
Spring rates alone won't reduce body roll. The larger rear sway bar upgrade will reduce the roll significantly. Sway bars, springs, and struts are all a system though. Increasing and changing parts will all have their own effect on handling but the sway is going to be the most noticeable.
If you want a performance alignment, you should look into getting at least one set of camber bolts for the front and camber arms for the rear. More front camber and less rear will help with handling a ton. The cars are setup to understeer from the factory and they definitely do. Running a bit more negative up front will help reduce this. A street performance alignment would be somewhere between -1 and -1.5 degrees in the front and about the same in the rear.
Spring rates alone won't reduce body roll. The larger rear sway bar upgrade will reduce the roll significantly. Sway bars, springs, and struts are all a system though. Increasing and changing parts will all have their own effect on handling but the sway is going to be the most noticeable.
FeelinDrewzy
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Thx bro, Didn't mean to sound like a nube lol ... So what would u suggest for a good set of coils for a DD?
no worries man. I just try to reply where I can. Whats your budget?
FeelinDrewzy
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1k- 1,500 max
Food for thought, I run stock suspension with camber bolts(front) camber arms (rear) And set it to -1.3 all around. I've run as much as -2.0 in the rear for a short time only due to the rear arm bushings wearing/settling in after a few thousand miles. Have no tire wear issues with my setup but anything more as stated by @Nix will cause abnormal wear. Rubbing or not, on purpose or not stay away from more than -1.5+ if you DD/street your car and/or care for your tire wear. I'm at -1.3 on all corners with no issue and great handle/stability so pick your poison I guess.
I also do a very minor toe IN / \ (ex) to help with stability, straight driving. I'm talking .05 degrees per side tops on top of factory "recommendations"
Lowering is cool but proper alignment is beast IMO
I also do a very minor toe IN / \ (ex) to help with stability, straight driving. I'm talking .05 degrees per side tops on top of factory "recommendations"
Lowering is cool but proper alignment is beast IMO
FeelinDrewzy
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What coil set up would u recommend... W/ the budget being between 1grand to 1,500