Amazon, Mobil 1 & Valvoline Oil Compared

[sunofwolf]

Just because you look healthy doesn't mean you shouldn't see a doctor. But you would be surprised at what you can find with testing your oil.

I would only be interested if the motor was burning oil, or making some strange sounds. A compression test is one of the best. And doctors-drug pushers kill more people than they help by far. The 116 old man very rarely saw a doctor.

 

[bauer311]

When sunofwolf leaves a questionable comment.

 

[squiggy]

When sunofwolf leaves a questionable comment.

When? Aren't they all questionable?

 

[sunofwolf]

When sunofwolf leaves a questionable comment.

that's me

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

Do the test kits come with goldfish now? Sweet!

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

View attachment 59006
@Bruce Bartlow I got my cup in today. I am going to change my oil 1 more time before trying to submit my test.

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Is the idea to know exactly how many miles are on the oil before testing it? Good plan.

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

Need a down vote button just for flawed logic.

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You know @squiggy, if you and I hadn't tested our MTF we both would have needed brand new trannies LONG ago. That $5,000 I saved sure made a believer out of me.

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

Like this brilliant bozo who didn't send in a tranny sample until it was too late:
https://www.screencast.com/t/ecoreT5t

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

Attached report from 2 yrs ago shows a very strong TBN (total base number) after 7,000 miles of use. So i was sold on the Pennzoil Ultra Platinum long ago. With those results the oil should last at least 10,000 miles (if not 15k) to a max of 1 year, whichever comes first. First heard about it over at BITOG.

 

[sunofwolf]

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You know @squiggy, if you and I hadn't tested our MTF we both would have needed brand new trannies LONG ago. That $5,000 I saved sure made a believer out of me.

If you read the bottle on MTF, it might have said not for LSD tranny that info is ready available though
amsoil has said in many places not for LSD tranny. You didn't need a test to read about what you are putting in your tranny.
I have gone though this stuff with the SRT-4 neon with lsd and are using mobil 1 0-40 because it has heavy zinc and a bottle of limited slip from dodge. When I think about this honda LSD stuff might work well in the Dodge. Dodge never had there own tranny oil and it caused a lot of problems. I was actually happy to see Honda got the tranny oil perfect in a bottle for $7.88+ tax and if you fill from top zero fluid is wasted-you don't need to check the side hole to see if you got the right amount. By the way you don't know yet what damage you caused that alu and iron was in there for 4500 miles. Some amsiol is still in there, change MTF again very early. My first time I change the Honda tranny oil of course I did it perfect 100% and it shifts like butter. Oh and get a magnetic tranny drain plug the test said iron is in there.

 

[mySIck]

If you read the bottle on MTF, it might have said not for LSD tranny that info is ready available though
amsoil has said in many places not for LSD tranny. You didn't need a test to read about what you are putting in your tranny.
I have gone though this stuff with the SRT-4 neon with lsd and are using mobil 1 0-40 because it has heavy zinc and a bottle of limited slip from dodge. When I think about this honda LSD stuff might work well in the Dodge. Dodge never had there own tranny oil and it caused a lot of problems. I was actually happy to see Honda got the tranny oil perfect in a bottle for $7.88+ tax and if you fill from top zero fluid is wasted-you don't need to check the side hole to see if you got the right amount. By the way you don't know yet what damage you caused that alu and iron was in there for 4500 miles. Some amsiol is still in there, change MTF again very early. My first time I change the Honda tranny oil of course I did it perfect 100% and it shifts like butter. Oh and get a magnetic tranny drain plug the test said iron is in there.

Amsoil says not to use Gear oil with LSD, gear oil and transmission fluid is not the same.

 

[sunofwolf]

Will I am glad you did this test and I learned what not to do with Honda tranny. Amsoil doesn't spell out clearly that their tranny oil isn't good for Honda's LSD, amsoil just wants to sell high priced snake oil. That extra iron and alu were grinding away at the tranny for 4500 miles maybe took out half its tranny life. Time will tell. I like Honda tranny MTF so good, I am going to try it in my Dodge-it is having problems with a throttle cable and not shifting very good, not surprising because dodge never had any good tranny oil.

 

[webby]

Will I am glad you did this test and I learned what not to do with Honda tranny. Amsoil doesn't spell out clearly that their tranny oil isn't good for Honda's LSD, amsoil just wants to sell high priced snake oil. That extra iron and alu were grinding away at the tranny for 4500 miles maybe took out half its tranny life. Time will tell. I like Honda tranny MTF so good, I am going to try it in my Dodge-it is having problems with a throttle cable and not shifting very good, not surprising because dodge never had any good tranny oil.

They specifically list one version FOR the si.

 

[sunofwolf]

Like what I said about amsoil, they just want your money. Amsoil marketing is really vicious. They have good stuff, however. amsoil needs to update their info on the Bottle of tranny oil. False marketing their products is normal for amsoil! You could sue them for damages to tranny, save your recepts and empty bottle of amsoil! Amsoil trolls their products and the internet like flies on ****! I just called Valvoline oil company and asked them about napa 0-20 which I bought two 1.25 Jugs of. Valvoline said the Napa branded oil is the very same as their own labeled product. the difference is $5. Valvoline also said they make a MTF fluid for the Honda SI. I am going to napa today to get two more platinum oil filters which I trust, I don't trust fram at all.

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

amsoil has said in many places not for LSD tranny. You didn't need a test to read about what you are putting in your tranny.
I have gone though this stuff with the SRT-4 neon with lsd and are using mobil 1 0-40 because it has heavy zinc and a bottle of limited slip from dodge. When I think about this honda LSD stuff might work well in the Dodge. Dodge never had there own tranny oil and it caused a lot of problems. I was actually happy to see Honda got the tranny oil perfect in a bottle for $7.88+ tax and if you fill from top zero fluid is wasted-you don't need to check the side hole to see if you got the right amount. By the way you don't know yet what damage you caused that alu and iron was in there for 4500 miles. Some amsiol is still in there, change MTF again very early. My first time I change the Honda tranny oil of course I did it perfect 100% and it shifts like butter. Oh and get a magnetic tranny drain plug the test said iron is in there.[/QUOTE]
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I'd be curious @sunofwolf to hear of the "many places" Amsoil stated "not for LSD". Besides some of the post-2012 Amsoil MTF containers, can you name even one? So that's my first question.

If Amsoil made any public comments it was well after one of their major and more vocal dealers (me) brought it to their attention back in 2012.

Not many read a bottle's fine print anyway. What ppl look at are the compatibility charts, as @webby did above. What those charts indicate (even Amsoil's own chart) is this: Amsoil MTF is the proper lubricant for Honda's 6-speed manual. Then the question becomes, have they changed the formulation in the last 10 years? We'll never know for sure... but I say yes, they were forced to. (They're also a private company... no way we'll ever find out)

But I agree with @sunofwolf skepticism of Amsoil marketing. While I don't doubt its veracity, they are very selective in which ASTM tests they choose to highlight in their comparisons. Sometimes it's the 4-ball wear test (if they win) other times it's the Noack volatility (if they win) yet other times an oil's flow at cold temperatures...if they win. But Amsoil isn't alone in that practice.

I was an Amsoil dealer for years. Even spent a week at their Superior, WI plant learning about PAO's (polyalphaolephins) and esters from their head chemist (at the time Troy Paquette) and meeting all the big brass there, having lunch and drinks with them day and night. So I've had a set of experiences more extensive than most.

I wasn't impressed. The founder of the company, the fighter pilot known as "AJ" was getting on in years and was in the process of turning control of the company to his young son, Alan. AJ was great... rock solid, old school. One of those crusty old guys... but honest as the day is long. Insisted on making the best product possible.

On the other hand I could see that Alan had everything given to him... typical of someone who wouldn't work as hard in the future. (Sorry, am I stereotyping?) As soon as Alan had control of the company we started seeing changes to the product line, specifically by using less expensive ingredients (less esters, for example, if any at all) even going so far as introducing a new product line called OE, for original equipment.
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Let me pause for a minute. For most of their oils the warranty was for 25,000 miles of use or one year. Half that for "severe use". Their Signature Series was 35,000 or one year. Again, half that for severe use. Along comes a new "OE" line that was guaranteed for just 7,500 miles or 6 months. But the cost savings of OE were dramatic -- a whopping .15/per quart.
Like I said, I wasn't impressed.

That MTF incident was just the last straw in a long line of straws. Big things, little things, like their P.I.

They had a great product called P.I. for Performance Improver, probably the only detergent based combustion chamber/fuel cleaner. Tests showed it helped get better gas mileage too. Redline made a similar product as did Chevron, but those were alcohol based and not nearly as effective and had no data supporting claims about fuel efficiency. Problem was, P.I. was expensive, and the only way I could personally justify its use was to buy it by the gallon. Guess what happens when Alan takes over? The gallon size is discontinued.

And so it went.

Alan was in direct contrast to how AJ did things. An example: In my early days I wrote AJ criticizing the lack of Amsoil dominance in oil filtration. Instead, AJ (focused on oil) had started discounting the filters to increase sales. I was not happy. So I wrote the boss a 5 page letter explaining how the dealers and customers weren't interested in saving a few pennies... we all wanted a filter that could live up to the Amsoil name, the best filter money could buy.

It worked. About a year later they introduced a new line of Ea filters with a level of 'first pass' filtration that is best in class, second only to a bypass. By the way, Amsoil doesn't make their own filters... Donaldson (an old line company like WIX) makes the Amosoil filters. I digress.
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When I approached them with the the fact that their MTF was destroying my transmission, they were dismissive. When they wanted proof I sent them my Blackstone lab report. They wanted more. Fortunately I had kept a large sample of the used Amsoil MTF. This time I sent a sample to the chem lab owned by Amsoil. Still didn't work; they wanted more. They didn't think I was telling the truth... that their oil had been contaminated, and other lame excuses.

Then @squiggy came along. He had done his own research, and taken pictures! Damning pictures of the ill-effects of Amsoil's MTF. I sent those in too. Nothing worked. In the end they claimed that it was a new transmission that was throwing off excessive wear metals only because it was new. "Give it time" they said. Right. "No f'n way I said... i'll lose the transmission". It was at that point I went back to Honda's MTF and the problems disappeared.

Suffice it to say I was very disappointed in Amsoil's reaction to our problems. If they treat their dealers like this, what are the chances of a regular customer getting justice?
I haven't purchased Amsoil since. And with Pennzoil's Ultra Platinum I don't need to.
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[sunofwolf]

Oh, I looked again, I didn't see anything saying don't use amsoil mtf in a Honda lsd tranny. Amsoil has turned into snake oil. What do you think of Valvoline oil? That Blackstone test is actually very good. Glad someone ran the the tests. Anyone would be confused with all this misleading Lie's marketing coming from Amsoil. I find this stuff fascinating, don't know why either!

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

BTW, @sunofwolf nobody is saying you have to test your oil.

The 9th Civic guys are strange, really strange. You see, some of us test as preventive maintenance, or because it's worth the $20 for a little piece of mind on a $30,000 - $130,000 piece of equipment... especially if we're about to spend big money on car maintenance. Sure, it's a bit extreme and perhaps unnecessary 90% of the time. But I tend to like my cars... and if you haven't noticed, they're not getting any cheaper.

I find the analysis interesting to monitor over time... it's also assuring to test a car at big miles and know the engine is solid when I'm about to buy a new timing chain, water pump or whatever costs a couple thousand at a shop. If the engine wasn't doing well I wouldn't bother. Or I'd sell it.

Besides, a compression test will only test compression. We're talking rings, right? I'm sure an F1 car produces great compression right before it blows up. (Or the Porsche 911 right before it blew up on track day... the Blackstone-Labs case study)

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

Oh, I looked again, I didn't see anything saying don't use amsoil mtf in a Honda lsd tranny. Amsoil has turned into snake oil. What do you think of Valvoline oil? That Blackstone test is actually very good. Glad someone ran the the tests. Anyone would be confused with all this misleading Lie's marketing coming from Amsoil. I find this stuff fascinating, don't know why either!

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Again, I think you'd be hard pressed to find Amsoil in a bold faced lie. At worst it's manipulation or selective use of data. If you don't agree, take them to court!

Time to go... time to

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

Sorry, I don't have any particular knowledge of Valvoline. Is it a synthetic? If so, is it a solid Group IV PAO or just a Group III hydrocrack like Mobile 1? That will tell you if it's built to last very long. Only the PAO's will last. (Or Group V esters... but if you're not paying $20/qt it's not esters)

All other oils really must be changed at no more than 5,000 imo. Sure you can squeeze 7,500 out... it's just not my style. And if you're beating the snot of the engine.... make it 3,000 miles. Again, it's only my personal opinion... yes, it's a somewhat educated opinion but I'll admit -- it's on the more extreme "I care about my engine" side of things.

Hey! Here's an idea!! About that Valvoline... drive your car as you normally would for 5,000 miles, 7,500 or whatever... then test the oil! If the engine isn't slowly falling apart, the Valvoline is probably fine for you. Or, if you're a fanatic like me you can try different oils and track the rate of engine wear with each oil. Back at ya!

 

[mySIck]

@Bruce Bartlow have you tested the Castrol EDGE extended performance advanced Full synthetic by chance?